Did God die on the cross?

Unravelling the Trinitarian confusion on the death or survival of “God” on the cross

by Ibn Anwar BHSc (Hons), MCollT

          Standard Trinitarian theology teaches that in the incarnation of Jesus he existed in two natures—divine and human. These two natures are inseparable in the incarnation in the Son of God who is the second person of the Triune Godhead. Thus Jesus was the Son of God with two natures simultaneously, that is, human and divine. Almost all Christians of every denomination today believe that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross. The question that has remained controversial and without a clear definite answer regarding Jesus’ alleged crucifixion amongst Christians is the nature of Jesus’ death on the cross i.e. did he die only in his human nature or both natures together? Did God actually die on the cross? Logically, the answer should be yes (credit is due to Dr. Shabir Ally for the following formula):

A. Jesus is God

B. Jesus died

C. Therefore, God died.

Most Christians however, will be horrified at such a conclusion, frown upon it and will normally counter that God did not actually die. That which died on the cross was really just the flesh. The problem with this apologetic position is that it separates the two natures of Jesus as taught in traditional Trinitarianism. Theologians have described this excuse as Nestorian in kind which was declared a heresy by the Catholic church centuries ago. Saint Cyril in his twelve anathemas against Nestorius as proposed and accepted at the Council of Ephesus stated:

“If anyone does not confess that the Word of God suffered in the flesh and was crucified in the flesh and tasted death in the flesh and became the first born of the dead, although as God he is life and life-giving, let him be anathema.” [1]

The twelfth anathema (denunciation) describes God as experiencing and tasting death. Thus the Council of Ephesus would not have entertained the idea that the suffering underwent by Jesus on the cross was exclusively experienced by the human nature/flesh and the divine untouched. The celebrated Archbishop Fulton Sheen who was a notable Catholic theologian and voice in America said in a meeting in Dublin, Ireland:

“You ask, for instance, “Did God die on the Cross?” The answer, happily, is Yes — as I have said the first answer is usually right. But if you go on and ask “What happened to the universe while God was dead?” nearly all abandon the great truth to which they have just assented, and explain that it was not God who died on the Cross but the human nature God the Son had assumed: which roughly is the Nestorian heresy, condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431, one year before St. Patrick landed for the conversion of your ancestors and mine. The true answer, you may say, sounds not so very different from the heresy: need we bother the young with technical distinctions of this sort? But upon this distinction our redemption depends and the young are quite capable of seeing the distinction, and of rejoicing in it.” [2] (bold emphasis added)

But there is no shortage of dissenting voices among other Christians. Calvinist theologian and pastor, R. C. Sproul is one such individual who rejects and denounces the notion that God truly died on the cross:

We should shrink in horror from the idea that God actually died on the cross. The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ. Somehow people tend to think that this lessens the dignity or the value of the substitutionary act, as if we were somehow implicitly denying the deity of Christ. God forbid. It’s the God-man Who dies, but death is something that is experienced only by the human nature, because the divine nature isn’t capable of experiencing death.” [3]

It should be noted that in the above one detects some confusion on Sproul’s part. Though he rejects the idea that God actually died, he affirms in the same paragraph that the God-man died. If the God-man died then God should have experienced death too unless Sproul considers it valid to break the two natures and separate them which we have already seen is antithesis to Trinitarianism.

In his book Discovering the God Who is Sproul writes:

“If God is immutable, can he die? The obvious answer is no.” [4]

It would seem that Sproul does indeed affirm that God did not in fact die on the cross.

A Catholic apologist who claims to be a lecturer in philosophy at a university denies the claim that Jesus’ divinity in any way experienced death:

“This is not a matter of argument, but a dogma of the Church. Not only ‘only the human nature of Christ died’ but only his body died. Death means death of the biological body. The human soul of Christ (which has a human will and a human intellect) did not die, nor can it die. It “descended unto dead, and on the third day rose again” upon uniting with His body.” [5]

In this Catholic apologist’s mind God did indeed die but only in his human nature as he says, “here is my position: There is no question that God died, but it doesn’t mean that the Divinity of Christ also died. God died only in his human nature.”

The Methodist theologian Charles Wesley had no compunction however, to declare in his hymn that the immortal God died (bold emphasis mine):

And can it be that I should gain
An interest in the Savior’s blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain?
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

’Tis mystery all: th’ Immortal dies!
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
Let angel minds inquire no more.

He left His Father’s throne above,
So free, so infinite His grace!
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam’s helpless race.
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
For O my God, it found out me!

Calvinist theologian Dr. Francis Nigel Lee who is Professor of Systematic Theology and Caldwell-Morrow Lecturer in Church History at the Queensland Theological College opposes the idea of a dying God and vehemently criticises Wesley’s suggestion that the immortal God died:

“Wesley the Arminian later resurrected Theopaschitism. A few ill-chosen lines in his otherwise great hymn And can it be?, reveal this heresy. Here are those lines. (1) Amazing grace! And can it be – that Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?”; (2) “’Tis mystery all! The immortal dies”; and (3) “Emptied Himselfof all love.”

The fact is, however, it was not God but Wesley who died! God did not die – because He cannot die (First Timothy 1:17 & 6:14-16). To claim with Wesley that “the immortal dies” – is like claiming that God Who is Light could become darkness (contra First John 1:5b).” [6]

Centuries earlier the father of the Reformation, professor of systematic theology Martin Luther opposed the idea that it was only the man that died and affirmed that God too died in no uncertain terms in his comments on John 3:16:

“Someone might ask: “How is it possible for the Son of man to save us and give us eternal life?” Another might ask: “How could God allow his only Son to be crucified?” Certainly it’s reasonable to say that the Son of Man died on the cross, but to say that a man can give us eternal life doesn’t make sense. It also doesn’t seem reasonable that God would let his own Son die for the world. But we must remember that when we speak about Christ, we are not speaking about a mere human being, but one person with two natures—human and divine. All of the characteristics attributed to these two natures can be found in this one person, Jesus Christ. Therefore, we can say that the Son of Man created heaven and earth, and we can also say that the Son of God created heaven and earth. We shouldn’t divide Christ into two separate natures, as the heretics do. They claim that it wasn’t the Son of God, but only Mary’s son, who suffered and died for us.

This passage, however, clearly states that God gave his Son for the world. When Christ was handed over to Pilate to be crucified and was led by Pilate to the judgment hall, Pilate took hold of the hand of not only a human being, but also God. That’s why Paul said that if the people of Jerusalem had known, they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord of glory—the one all creation adores (1 Corinthians 2:8). Therefore, it was not only the Son of Man, but also God’s Son who was conceived by Mary, suffered and died, was buried, descended into hell, and was raised again from the dead.” [7]

Christian Chinese evangelist preacher Witness Lee affirms the death of God on the cross in his book The Crystallization of the Epistle to the Romans:

“Also, Christ’s flesh, His humanity, was the incarnation of God, so when this humanity was dying on the cross, God was also there. Hebrews 9:14 shows that Christ did not die on the cross merely as a man. He also offered Himself to God by the eternal Spirit. The eternal Spirit was with Him and strengthened Him to die.” [8]

Elsewhere, in his The History of God in His Union with Man Lee writes:

“In John 8:26 the Lord Jesus said, “He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone.” God the Father sent Christ, but the Lord said that He who sent Him was with Him. When the Son came, the Father came with Him. When the Lord Jesus was traveling on this earth, he was traveling with the Father. He said that the Father had not left Him alone. Thus, when He was praying in Gethsemane, the Father was there. When He was dying on the cross, He was dying there with the Father. Jesus the Man was dying on the cross with God. Charles Wesley wrote a hymn with a line that says, “Amazing love! how can it be/ That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?” (Hymns, #296). This means that our  God died for us. When Christ died on the cross, that was God dying for us. Christ died with God because God never left Him alone. Even in His crucifixion, God was with Him.” [9] (emphasis added)

What we see in the above is not only an affirmation that God died on the cross, but it would also seem that Witness Lee is conflating the Father with Jesus and is implying that the Father experienced death with Jesus on the cross. In Lee’s zeal to affirm God’s death on the cross he has inadvertently committed the heresy known as patripassianism,that is, the notion that the Father suffered or died.

Lutheran theologian Dr. George Murphy affirms the theological understanding conveyed by the Catholic apologist cited above that God in a way did experience death, but His divinity or divine nature was precluded from any suffering.

“In spite of these common assumptions about divine immutability, impassibility, and imperishability, Christians have said that in some real sense God suffered and died on the cross. Early in the second century Ignatius of Antioch spoke of this as”the passion of my God,” and about a hundred years later Tertullian wrote,”It is a part of the creed of Christians even to believe that God did die, and yet that He is alive for evermore.”

The theological tradition interpreted the claim that God is truly present in the human Jesus with the idea that two natures, divine Word. The accompanying doctrine of communication of attributes in the personal union then allowed properties of either of the two natures to be spoken of in connection with the person of Christ. Mary could be said to be theotokos,”God-bearer,” even though the divine nature did not have its beginning in Mary’s womb. In a similar way it could be said that the crucified was”one of the Holy Trinity,”even though the divine nature was not nailed to the cross.” [10]

Though Murphy affirms that God died on the cross he denies that the divine nature was in any way harmed. How is it meaningful to say that God died but His God nature did not die? If one affirms that only the human part dies and not the divine part then one is splitting them in two and as Archbishop Sheen stated this is akin to Nestorianism. Reiterating the same view as Murphy’s a popular Christian website writes:

“His body really did die. The Roman soldiers made sure of that. They were experts at killing people.

Jesus Christ’s physical body was 100-percent human, not just part human. Our bodies can die, and so could his. When we die, our physical body dies, but our soul and spirit remain. They are eternal; they never die. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His physical body died, but his inner self is eternal and did not die.” [11]

Contradicting Murphy and the others, another Lutheran theologian Carl E. Braaten writes:

“We hear the same idea in a Lutheran hymn: “O great distress! God himself lies dead. On the cross he died, and by doing this, he has won for us the realm of heaven.”

What then have we learned from Luther? (1) The meaning of the word “God” is determined by its reference to the person of Jesus. (2) When Christians think about God in connection with jesus, it must be remembered that this person was crucified, so that God must henceforth be encountered in the cross of Jesus Christ.  (3) The death of Jesus was not an event that affected only his humanity, but also his divinity. Hence it is necessary to say, from a Christian point of view, that God died on the cross and not only a human being.[12] (emphasis added)

According to Braaten the one that suffered and died on the cross was not only the human Jesus, but also the divine Jesus.

Witness Lee in fact affirms that both divine and human natures died:

“The death of Christ on the cross was all-inclusive. Not only did man die there, but God also died there. God died on the cross in order to be released…God in Christ died on the cross.

Our wonderful Jesus is God and man; He is a God-man. When He died on the cross, both God and man died there…It is not a small thing that Jesus died on the cross, because when Jesus died, God died in him and man died in him.” [13] (emphasis added)

In the above discussion we may list down the various views that we have seen as follows:

1) God did not die at all.

2) God died which was experienced only by His human nature.

3) God did not die. Only his human flesh did.

4) God died in both human and divine nature together.

5) God died as experienced by both the Father and the Son.

Many a time it is commonplace to hear Christian apologists accusing Muslims of being uncertain as to what exactly happened on the cross according to our Islamic tradition. They would point to the fact that our traditions suggest multiple different personalities being crucified in Jesus’ stead. We concede that in our classical commentaries there are various different ways of interpretations regarding Jesus’ alleged crucifixion. What many Christians fail to realise is that they have an even more fundamental problem in their traditions namely who and what exactly died on the cross? Even amongst Trinitarians as we have seen completely divergent and contradictory views are posited regarding who exactly was the one that suffered on the cross. Is it more blasphemous to say that someone else was crucified other than Jesus or to say that God Himself truly died when most agree that He is immutable and can never die?  Is there anything worse than a false witness against God’s being? How does one reconcile the idea of God dying with the clear verse that denies any possibility of God dying in 1 Timothy 6:16 which states that “He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen.” Benedictine monk Antoine Augustine Calmet in the Calmet’s Dictionary of the Bible states under the entry on immortality, “God is absolutely immortal; he cannot die…Holiness is the root of immortality, but God only is absolutely holy, as God only is absolutely immortal. All imperfection is a drawback on the principle of immortality: only God is absolutely perfect; therefore, only God is absolutely immortal.” [14] Professor of Divinity, John Brown in his A Dictionary of the Holy Bible writes under the entry on immortality, “that which doth not and cannot die. God is immortal , and only has immortality; he hath life in and of himself, and is infinitely secure against death, hurt, or ruin of any kind, 1 Tim. i. 17. vi. 16.” [15] Trinitarian semantics gymnastics will not resolve the issue as we have seen in the discussion. Their word games only confound their predicament further and complicate matters even more leading them to drastically contradictory views.

We will close our discussion with the following footage which is an excellent and practical example of Trinitarian bewilderment:

Trinitarian confusion abounds and persists. We bear witness that the Creator of the universe is Everlasting and can never die.

 

 

Notes:

[1] Anon. (n.d.). The Council of Ephesus – 431 A.D. Retrieved from http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum03.htm#Twelve%20Anathemas%20Proposed%20by%20Cyril%20and%20accepted%20by%20the%20Council%20of%20Ephesus

[2] Sheen, F. J. (1953). Are We Really Teaching Religion?. Retrieved from http://ewtn.com/library/HOMESCHL/TCHREL.HTM

[3] Sproul, R. C. (2012, March 23). Did God Die on the Cross?. Retrieved from http://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/

[4] Sproul, R. C. (1995). Discovering the God Who is: His Character and Being, His Power and Personality. Ventura, California: Regal. p. 112

[5] Anon. (2012, December 18). Exposing and Refuting the errors of Isahel Alfonso. Retrieved from http://catholicposition.blogspot.com/2012/12/exposing-and-refuting-heresy-of-isahel.html

[6] Lee, F. N. (n.d.). Did God Die on Calvary?. Retrieved from www.dr-fnlee.org/docs4/dgdoc/dgdoc.pdf

[7] Luther, M. (2005). Faith Alone: A Daily Devotional. James Galvin (ed.). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan.

[8] Lee, Witness (1994). The Crystallization-Study of the Epistle to the Romans. Anaheim, California: Living Stream Ministry. p. 29

[9] Lee, Witness (1993). The History of God in His Union with Man. Anaheim, California: Living Stream Ministry. p. 15

[10] Murphy, G. L. (2003). The Cosmos in the Light of the Cross. Harrisburg, Pennsylvania: Trinity Press International. p. 40

[11] Anon. (n.d.). If Jesus is God, how could he die? If Jesus died on the cross, then how can he be alive today?. Retrieved from http://christiananswers.net/kids/ednk-jesusalive.html

[12] Braaten, C. E. (2011). Who is Jesus? Disputed Questions and Answers. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. p. 96

[13] Lee, Witness (2000). Enjoying the Riches of Christ for the Building Up of the Church as the Body of Christ. Anaheim, California: :Living Stream Ministry. p. 10

[14] Calmet, A. A. (1830). Calmet’s Dictionary of the Holy Bible, Vol. 1. London: Holdsworth and Ball. p. 729

[15] Brown, J. (1816). A Dictionary of the Holy Bible, Vol. 2. Albany: R.C. Southwick. p. 18

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67 Responses to “Did God die on the cross?”

  1. John the Baptist says:

    salam!
    bro ibn anwar where have u been? ive been waiting earnestly for more articles from u. this one is great! trinitarians r totally confused. did god die or not? yes or no? yes no yes no yes no haha

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      Wa’alaikum salam akhi,
      Thank you for your kind words. We shall strive to write more articles in the near future insha’Allah.

    • defendchrist says:

      HI not so John the Baptist

      What happens when we die do we cease to exist? did Jesus cease to exist or move into the spiritual realm?

      you Muslims ask the most stupid questions…did God die? because you refuse the TRINITY that we believe and preach and because it makes no sense to you, your position is then to try and make it sound like Christians are talking complete rubbish.

      i asked a Muslim to answer me in regards to a verse in the Jewish Torah

      Gen 19:23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
      Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
      Gen 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

      We all know the Jews believe in one God but in this verse we can clearly see TWO Jehovah’s one on earth and the other in heaven.

      This is not Christian scriptures but the Jews and the Jews and Christians do NOT believe the same things.

      so we are not confused about who was killed on the cross.

      ask yourself this question you are body and soul when your body dies does your soul die too?

      if your soul is still alive where do you go?

      and on the last day (according to Islam) what is resurrected body and soul together what do you guys believe

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        Your semantics gymnastics will not fly here defendchrist. By death we do not mean cessation of existence. Death simply means the separation of the soul from the body. God is immune from this frailty as 1 Timothy 6:16 makes clear, yet as I have proven in the article Christians are confused as to whether God truly died on the cross with the human Jesus or not. So it is not a stupid question to ask since Christians are too stupid to give a coherent, sound and consistent answer as to how the Trinity truly works. It is not a matter of whether the Trinity makes sense to us or not. The fact of the matter is Christian theologians themselves recognise that the trinity DOES NOT make sense.

        Genesis 19:24 has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. However, because you have raised it here I will address it. Genesis 19:24 does not amount to the Trinity. In fact you just admitted to us that you are a polytheist by saying, “We all know the Jews believe in one God but in this verse we can clearly see TWO Jehovah’s one on earth and the other in heaven.” So you believe in TWO Jehovahs! Thank you. The Old Testament speaks of ONLY ONE God. Trinitarianism teaches that there is but ONE YHWH as well. But the three are persons in this one YHWH. You on the other hand just said it that in Genesis 19:24 there was one YHWH in heaven and another YHWH on earth making TWO Jehovahs. Congratulations for proving our point which you ridiculously tried to disprove namely, that Trinitarians are so confused they can never give a straight and consistent explanation of their theology. Further more, if Genesis 19:24 proves Jesus to be God then it disproves the Holy Spirit to be God since he is totally absent from the incident! Where was he? Hiding behind the bushes? Standard trinitarian theology teaches that all three always agree on every single decree and action. Where is the agreement from the Holy Spirit?? What you have here is a Binity and not a Trinity. Thank you for choosing a new doctrine over the Trinity. Again this shows how seriously confused you are. Finally, a repetition of a noun or word or name in a sentence does not entail two or more persons. Genesis 19:24 uses a Hebraism which you have completely no clue about.
        ‘and Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of the house of Abraham’ (Genesis 17:23)
        Oh, look! There were TWO Abrahams!
        ‘and it was in the coming down of Moses from mount Sinai and two tables of testimony in the hand of Moses’. (Exodus 34:29)
        Oh, look! There were TWO Moses’!
        ‘then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon’ (1 Kings 8:1)
        Oh, look! There were TWO Solomons!

        Debunked.

        • Jesus says:

          Great reply !!!! , you knocked this confused trinitarian out.

          Man, i love you Brother ………

          …………..Wait a minute iam not a homo , LOL

          • Ibn Anwar says:

            Haha thanks bro ;). By the way, have you checked the latest update on the ‘New Testament Anachronism’?

          • Linford says:

            Hi not so Jesus

            There is a difference between someone’s name been mentioned twice in a verse,and being in two different places at the same time which is what the text is saying Ibn Anwar can write as much as he wants it doesn’t explain away what I have mentioned.

            You Muslims have had over 1000 years to prove your case and you are still writing and making comments and still where is your positive proof.

            You claim Muhammad is the bible which your koran says in 7:157 yet when you prove he is in there the Muslims then say the scriptures we have are not the right ones.

            Which means your god has no power over man to protect his own word.

        • The Bull says:

          Hi Ibn Anwar

          Genesis 2:17 (speaking of Adam and Eve) reads :”But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ”

          Jesus died in this same sense. The ‘death’ in this case was a separation from the Father due to sin. Adam and eve ‘died’ on the day they ate the fruit, but they physically died (in Adams) case some 900 or so years later. We know that God is a spirit so the death of Jesus was simply a separation of the Sons spirit from the Fathers. The human body of Jesus also died, but was also raised incorruptible. This concept is quite reasonable when you put it all together.

          Regards from The Bull

          • Ibn Anwar says:

            Hi The Bull,
            The death of Jesus according to mainstream Trinitarian belief is the “death of God”. You cannot simply say that Jesus’ body died but not his alleged divine component as I have already made clear in the article. This is not a reasonable faith as the Bible itself declares that God cannot and does not experience death of any kind.

          • semsav12 says:

            Did an “it” die for your sins or a “he”?
            Is Jesus equivalent to God the Son?Yes or no.
            Is that “he” Jesus?Yes or no.

          • The Bull says:

            Hi Ibn Anwar

            I didn’t say the divine component of Jesus didn’t die. The bible says he was made sin for us:

            2 Corithians 5:21 : “For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. ” (KJV)

            Because he became sin, he died and was separated from God the Father. His divine nature meant that death could not keep him down. His divine nature is what assures us that he is God. He conquered the grave and sin.
            Who else could do that?

            Praise to the only true God

          • Ibn Anwar says:

            “I didn’t say the divine component of Jesus didn’t die.”
            Thank you for confirming that you believe that God died.

          • The Bull says:

            People mistake death for ceasing to exist or irreversable destruction. Jesus who is God died, but he did not cease to exist nor was he completely destroyed. I don’t have a problem with that. His divine component was separated from God (died), for a certain period untill he overcame sin and death. God did not completley die anyway as the other two persons in the God head were still alive and without sin.

          • Ibn Anwar says:

            How can anyone be seriously this stupid? No one here is saying that death means cessation of existence. Stop beating on a strawman. We are saying that God does not experience death of any kind as 1 timothy 6:16 makes absolutely clear. The word used there is ‘athanasia’ which is antithesis to the concept of death i.e. the end of life on earth. His divine component was separated from God? What the hell are you talking about? The divine nature of Jesus is what makes him God. God separated from God? That is absurd and you know it. God did not completely die anyway? By saying this you are saying God did die! Thank you for confirming our proposition that Christians are in a muddle of confusion. If the other two persons were ALIVE and the other one was NOT as you have clearly admitted then God did for a time cease to exist as God because God in Trinitarian theology means Father, Son and Holy Spirit and NOT just Father and Holy Spirit. God = Trinity in your theology. Reduce it to two it is no longer God. Can you not see that? You are confused just as all ur trinitarian buddies are.

          • rocky says:

            Since Trinitarians do not supply any unambiguous definitions of the words used in their doctrine such as “person”, “essence”, “being” and “nature”, it will always be jibberish since the doctrine is meaningless without having these terms defined.

            When it comes to these other philosophical questions, you will never get straight answers from Trinitarians since it will ultimately prove their doctrine wrong. For example, the Triune God is one single HE who is three HE’s. 3 HE’s = 1 HE. That is never going to make any sense. They deny that that the Son is 1/3 of God yet they insist that each of the 3 is not the other yet each of the 3, and all 3, are that one God. That will never make any sense either. Or they will insist the Triune God is the one God while also insisting the Father is not the Triune God (or vice versa). That is never going to make any sense either. And so on and so on. But most Trinitarians have been brainwashed into thinking either that (1) their doctrine doesn’t need to make logical sense, or (2) how all this can be true is a “mystery.” Most of them do not realize their doctrine is the product of a human reasoning process and by supposing it doesn’t need to make sense, or that the conclusion to their reasoning is a mystery. they are inadvertently admitting their reasoning doesn’t make any sense. So you need to realize that when it comes to the philsophical question, you need to remember you will be dealing with insanity.

            Another thing you need to realize is that their doctrine is not really fixed. What is true today might not be true tomorrow. For example, they might say, “God is NOT one person” today but tomorrow when you bring up 1 Corinthians 8:6 they will have to admit Paul identifies God as one person (the Father). Today the Greek word monogenes (see John 1:18) does not mean “only begotten” but tomorrow they will point to John 3:16 where the same word is used and insist that Jesus is God’s only begotten Son. They are full of contradictions but refuse to admit it.

            In short, unless you are speaking with a reasonable person who hasn’t given the question much thought, you will find that most Trinitarians commonly resort to this kind of insanity and you really can’t have a reasonable discussion with them.

      • rocky says:

        i see that a triplet worshippin POLYTHIEST had walked into this place.

        so who PUNISHED THE 3RD person in the trinity?

        did the romans PUNISH COMPLETE god / or 3rd person?

      • rocky says:

        “ask yourself this question you are body and soul when your body dies does your soul die too?

        if your soul is still alive where do you go?”

        BLOODY christian parrot!

        is my soul INDEPENDANT LIKE GODS SOUL?

        when i DIE there will BE CHANGE

        in the jewish texts god says he does not change

        so when he dies a bodily DEATH he changes

        IS MY SOUL independant of my body? can i BAKE A cake on EARTH becoz my soul is INDEPENDANT like gods and CAN BE EVERY WHERE ?

        If your pagan gods soul WAS INDEPENDANT of his meat/flesh WHat was the point of him TAKING On flesh?

  2. Oro says:

    Assalam alaikum akhee, nice article. Pls what is the correct opinion on wishing the christian merry christmas and eating there food during the festive period?

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      Wa’alaikum salam warahmatullah,
      It’s nice to hear from you again. Wishing Christians a merry Christmas is fine according to Sheikh Dr. Tahirul Qadri and the National Fatwa Council of Malaysia (http://www.e-fatwa.gov.my/fatw.....aan-agama-). There is nothing wrong intrinsically with wishing someone a Merry Christmas as it is a day that marks the birth of Jesus a.s. which is not in of itself against the precepts of the Shari’ah. As for eating their food during this period the same ruling applies just as any other time of the year. So long as they do not serve food that is specifically classified as haram by our law it would be permissible to dine with them. The meat of the ahlul kitab is permissible for believers to eat according to many jurists including Sheikh Qaradawi so long as you are sure that the animal was slaughtered by a member of the ahlul kitab. Wallahu’alam.

  3. Oro says:

    Jazakallah Khairan for the swift response. I was listening to one of Dr Bilal Phillips lecture where he advice muslims against wishing them merry christmas and eating their food for this (only)festive period. Also Dr. Zakir Naik and some notable scholars in my country, pls what your take on this because am so confuse on this now. This xmas I didn’t reach out to any christian around me and when greeted with merry xmas, I just smile or reply with mere greeting. I am now thinking, have I not make what is Halal, Haram?

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      Wa iyyak. I would advice you against paying heed to Bilal Philips. He has egregious mistakes in his worldview. Dr. Zakir Naik is a medical practitioner by training. He is not capable of issuing juristic edicts. I would humbly recommend that you turn to the ‘ulama of Ahl Sunnah Wal Jama’ah. I have referred you to several reliable sources of information that I believe have clarified the matter. There is no qat’i(certain/clear) command in either the Qur’an or the Sunnah prohibiting Muslims from wishing the Christians a ‘Merry Christmas’. Further more, we know that the Prophet s.a.w. himself allowed the Christians to worship in the mosque in Madinah. We should be able to be more tolerant and understanding if we wish to attract people to our faith. Wallahu’alam.

      • Oro says:

        May Allah continue to increase you in knowledge and wisdom. Great article and great reply(ies). Please can i send you email, because there are other issue i would like you to help me with that i would like to have better understanding with. May Allah reward you with the best.

    • Jesus says:

      Oro i agree with brother Anwar .

      When Muslims can celebrate birthday of prophet why should be ther any problem in celebrating or for that matter wishing Christmas .

      You know iam kinda get irritated when Muslims bring such silly things and make a mountain out of it , what is wrong in wishing Christmas ?

      If we wish Christmas , then is our faith in one true God coming to a crashing end or will God throw us into hell just on wishing some body on Christmas ?

      This is the thing about Muslims which bugs me , they waste there time and energy on petty silly irrelevant things

      • Oro says:

        What I believe Bro Ibn Anwar is talking is not about CELEBRATING, it about WISHING them merry Christmas, when you read the link he provided me with above you will understand better. And as far as i know celebrating the Prophet (saw) birthday is Bidaa (Innovation) according to Ulama of Ahl Sunnah Wal Jama’ah.

        • Ibn Anwar says:

          Yes, I did address specifically the issue of wishing someone “merry Christmas.” On the other hand Dr. Tahirul Qadri does not find it wrong to celebrate Christmas insofar that it marks the birth of Isa a.s. Celebrating the birth of the Prophet s.a.w. is not a bid’ah according to the ‘ulama. The vast majority of the scholars agree including Ibn Taimiyyah, Ibn Kathir etc. that it is praiseworthy to celebrate the Prophet’s birthday. Most Muslim countries around the world mark the occasion with great celebration. There is nothing wrong with celebrating the Prophet’s birth according to the precepts of the Shari’ah. In fact, it is good. Wallahu’alam.

  4. Jesus says:

    What an article ! i will give 100/100 to this one .

    This article excellently captures the absurdity which Christians find themselves at when defending the position of divinity of Jesus and his death on cross .

    More surprising is that the top guns among Christian theologians are also reduced to a laughing stock on defending this outright illogical nonsense.

    The central doctrines of Christianity are nothing more than a absurdity.

    When God was distributing brain to humans he saw Christians discussing the trinity and hypostatic union he told to them i will not give you brain as you wont be needing them any way on trinity and hypostatic union.

    Thanks akhi , keep it up .

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      Jazakumullah khair habibi! 😀
      I was waiting for your reply patiently :D. Yes, as always when it comes to theology Christians are so very confused and muddled.

  5. rocky says:

    why don’t they admit it that part of gods essense is that he is 100 percent human being ? why don’t they admit that they WORSHIP the human PART of thier god ALSO?

    i was thinking the other day about how pagan the trinity is

    one christian thinks that while jezuz was DEAD on the cross, he some how stepped outside of the punishment the father was pouring on his spirit and helped the father raise the dead saints

    did the father NEED any help from the son or the spirit to POUR his wrath on jesus for the sins of human beings?

    was jesus helping the father pour his wrath on jesus?

    if the father didn’t require assistance from either spirit/jesus in BEATING up jesus’ spirit , then why did he require JOINT APPLICATION in raising dead saints?

  6. rocky says:

    these pagan gods, father, jezuz and spirit WORK INDEPENDANTLY OF EACH other.

  7. Alf says:

    This whole thing about whether God died or not is as confusing as the doctrine of trinity itself. Bro Ibn Anwar, you wrote a fine article with appropriate references. I love how Shabbir Ally dealt with this whole concept of crucifixion in his debate with Jay Smith. The relevant excerpts as in the video, is worth preserving, if not for proselytizing, then just for the sake of amusement 🙂 Rarely do we find a combination of both logic and humour in debates of these kinds.

    So, what I gather from all this, is that there is great confusion whether only the flesh died, or God and flesh both. If you say only flesh died, then it raises further questions,like, if the flesh and God are so separate that one dies without harming the other, then why call Jesus God at all? God has always remained separate from him , just as God is separate from other human beings! And if a trinitarian, as a response to that states, that the fact that God dwelt inside the flesh makes Jesus God, then was Mary God too, when Jesus was in her womb?

    Secondly, as Shabbir pointed out, if one says the son died and not God, then the question arises why does the father kill his son instead of coming himself. Does he not love his son?

    Of course, the answer to these questions is that God himself died, and that is worse than saying the flesh died, because God is eternal and can not die.

    The solution to such confusion lies in Islam, the deen of salam , i.e peace! As it’s written in the bible : God is not the author of confusion but of peace

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      Thank you for your thoughts my old friend. Finally, you have returned to Unveiling Christianity after such a long sabbatical! 😀

  8. Alms says:

    Brother Ibn Anwar, you have in this yet another scholarly article once again proved the absurdity and baselessness of Christianity. May Allah reward you with jannatul firdaus for your zeal towards the way of God, may He guide us all, ameen.

  9. rocky says:

    hello bro

    here is a missionary trying to reply to you

    this quote:

    “there was one YHWH in heaven and another YHWH on earth making TWO Jehovahs. Congratulations for proving our point which you ridiculously tried to disprove namely, that Trinitarians are so confused they can never give a straight and consistent explanation of their theology.”

    this argument is extremely weak, if you return to scriptures:

    God revealed himself to Moses on Mt. Horeb in the burning bush (Ex. 3:2-15). Yet what Moses beheld was the remarkable bush that burned but was not consumed (vs. 2). Although it was I AM that spoke with Moses, we are told it was “the angel of Jehovah” that appeared to him. Jesus himself claimed to be the I Am (John 8:58). This and numerous other passages reveal that in ancient times the second person of the Godhead, the one who is called “the Word” (John 1:1), came down and interacted with chosen people as the angel of Jehovah. This angel could be seen, usually appearing as a man. Yet he is often referred to as Jehovah (Gen. 19:1-13, 33). God went before the Hebrews as they traversed the wilderness. What they saw was the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire (Ex. 13:21-22). God entered into and dwelt in the holy of holies of his tabernacle. But what the high priest saw was the Shekinah or glory of the Lord, the bright shining light that was the symbol of his presence in their midst (Ex. 40:34-35).While on Mt. Sinai Moses asked God, “Show me thy glory. And (God) said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee…and he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live…and thou shalt see my back: but my face shall not be seen” (Ex. 33:18-23). When God spoke to Moses “face to face” He spoke as “a man unto his friend,” i.e., familiarly (Ex. 33:11). When Moses spoke of “Jehovah (being) seen face to face” by the Hebrews, he explains, “and thy cloud standeth over them, and thou goest before them, in a pillar of fire by night” (Num. 14:14). What they saw was the pillar of fire and the cloud, not the Spirit presence of Jehovah.

    please take note while God visited Moses, dwelt in the tabernacle, how could the universe still exist? in other words how could the sun still be burning, the planets still spinning, the the universe from being destroyed if God cant be ever where at once? The logocal answer is God can be every where at once on earth and in Heaven at the same time. God is beyond space and time.

    http://forums.understanding-is.....post181766

  10. rocky says:

    “please take note while God visited Moses, dwelt in the tabernacle, how could the universe still exist? in other words how could the sun still be burning, the planets still spinning, the the universe from being destroyed if God cant be ever where at once? The logocal answer is God can be every where at once on earth and in Heaven at the same time. God is beyond space and time.”

    if god was everywhere @ once THEN when his flesh was BUTCHERED , he wasn’t BUTCHERED because he was everywhere @ once and he only experience the roman hands in a SMALL spot in israel, right? so what is big about his phony “sacrifice” ? lol

  11. rock says:

    what Moses beheld was the remarkable bush that burned but was not consumed (vs. 2

    What they saw was the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire

    bright shining light that was the symbol of his presence in their mids

    and thy cloud standeth over them, and thou goest before them, in a pillar of fire by night” (Num. 14:14).

    ROCKY:

    SO WHY DON’T you pagan polythiest triplet worshippers carry IMAGES OF FIRE AND CLOUD AND HANG them around your pagan knecks along with your PAGAN cross?

    if god became 100 % man then he became 100 % fire and shining light, right? so BOW before it and create a SYMBOL out of these items

    god imbued himself with these items, then i guess these items should be used in worship every sundays.

  12. semsav12 says:

    Salam!

    Check this out: God is refuting a Man who thinks he is God.

    From Eziekel 28
    “‘Because you think you are wise,
    as wise as a god,
    7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
    the most ruthless of nations;
    they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
    and pierce your shining splendor.
    8 They will bring you down to the pit,
    and you will die a violent death
    in the heart of the seas.
    9 Will you then say, “I am a god,”
    in the presence of those who kill you?
    You will be but a mortal, not a god,
    in the hands of those who slay you”

    Even God in the Old testament refuted this idea of a god/man/incarnate/whatever dying and still being a god, notive the phrase “You will be but a mortal, not a God”, as you can see Jesus supposedly died, in the presence of people that killed him(according to christians).

    Also, in Eziekel it states,
    “But you are a mere mortal and not a god,
    though you think you are as wise as a god.
    3 Are you wiser than Daniel[a]?
    Is no secret hidden from you?
    4 By your wisdom and understanding”

    Again, the he is saying that the man is not God for lack of omniscience, and as we see in the bible…
    “And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.”(Luke 2:52) Even More interesting is that Jesus didn’t know the hour, or if you are a trinitarian, the holy spirit and god the son didn’t know the hour, this would have been a secret hidden from them(according to trinitarian theology), thus causing severe problems. Jesus says only the Father knows the hour, and Zachariah 14:7 says Yahweh only knows the hour.

  13. Nelson says:

    The key to understanding this is to realize that death is not the end of existence for an embodied spirit such as a human being. The spirit survives death. However, when a human being dies, even though the spirit survives death, we say that a person — not a body — died. Christ is one Person who is both God and man. When he was crucified, the Person of Christ, who is the Second Person of the Trinity, died. However, he did not cease to exist. His soul separated from his body and was later reunited at the Resurrection. Because the Second Person did not cease to exist, the Trinity continued to exist during the time between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      Yes, and if you say that the second person of the Trinity died that would be saying that God in fact died since the second person of the Trinity is fully God. But as we have seen in the article there is an insurmountable confusion amongst Christian theologians as to whether God did indeed die on the cross or not. This confusion stems from the fact that the Trinity and the hypostatic union are unintelligible concepts that were created by the minds of men.

  14. Rambo says:

    His soul separated from his body and was later reunited at the Resurrection. Because the Second Person did not cease to exist, the Trinity continued to exist during the time between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

    Few questions

    If a god could walk in and out of flesh like some pagan Christian who can walk in and out of a shop, why wear flesh and act like the suffering was genuine when in reality it was walking in and out of flesh?

    Suffering means to feel experience? Where is experience when the item which hides in meat is leaving and departing like independent person who hides in a body of pig ?
    Is gods spirit like human spirit?death means change and inability to do what people did with their flesh when they were alive, does god require flesh when all he has to do is jump in and out of it? What was j essis human spirit/soul doing?was it dead? If he didn’t have a human soul , how in the hell is it a 100 percent human, according to which book?
    The pagans could have said the same thing u said above
    They killed the meat, but not the soul of our gods
    What is the biological relationship between flesh of jays us and his soul? Does his soul need flesh to do work? Does my soul need flesh to do work? When your gods flesh was hanging dead on a cross
    Did nt u see that it was the person of jayseus Hanging DeAd on the cross?

    Who would come out with your pagan nonsense that there are 3 persons and the second person has left the Dead body hanging on the cross? Lol
    Just visualise ur dead god hanging on pieces of wood
    Who would say that the pErSOn hanging off the cross belongs to 3 Other persons Lol and the second one who filled the Dead person is not Dead ?

    More later

    • Linford says:

      Hey Rambo
      You keep talking about Pagans as though they are the ones that started praying etc. I would have you know the majority of your own Religion is taken from pagan practices and if you want to go there we can.

      Kissing and touching the black stone…pagans did that BEFORE Muhammad

      Walking around the Kaaba…pagans did this BEFORE Muhammad

      The Sabeans pray 5 times a day….BEFORE Muhammad did this.

      Pagans performed a fast walk between As-Safa and Al-Marwah….BEFORE Muhammad took this on and modified it.

      The polytheistic pilgrimages required throwing stones at the devil…BEFORE Muhammad retained it

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        Linford, we know very well that the Quraish pagans practiced some of the things that are today found in Islamic practices such as the hajj, but the reasonable explanation behind that is that those practices were first established by monotheistic personalities i.e. Abraham and Ishmael. The Arabs deviated from their forefathers and immersed in polytheism whilst retaining the original practices of Abraham and his son. That is the standard Islamic understanding. In the Torah we are told that Aaron and his people worshipped the golden calf as YHWH when Moses went away to receive the tablets. Should we then cancel out the original pristine monotheistic nature of YHWH and claim that it all started with Aaron and his people therefore YHWH was originally an idol? Which manuscript that predates Islam that proves that the Sabeans prayed 5 times a day before the arrival of Islam exactly? Can you please cite the sources?

  15. semsav12 says:

    Ya, the hypostatic union is incredibly absurd, lets take a closer look.

    Jesus says “I, the son of man” (matthew 16:13)
    Notice the personal pronoun.

    God says “I am God and not a man” (Hosea 11:9)
    Again, notice the personal pronoun.

    It doesn’t work to talk about the Jesus’s nature as these impersonal attachments when personal pronouns are used. You are are left with two options, 2 different persons able to avoid the issue, but creating a theological issue, or 1 person, with contradictions. Since Jesus was fully man, with mind,soul and body, and a full divine person(second member of trinity), it appears that there are actually two persons, but if one stresses that 2 is actually one, you have sort of a similar problem with the trinity.

    • Linford says:

      Hi Semsav12
      How did God appear to Abraham in Genesis 18:1 -6?

      • semsav12 says:

        What is your point? Does God get tired and rest? Are you just going to ignore what I wrote?

        • Linford says:

          Hi Semsav12
          My point is this…Muslims have a problem with God coming as a man and they say it is pagan but what does the scripture say in Genesis 18 ? Is it Abraham’s imagination or doesn’t the text say The LORD appeared to him?

          How did God appear in human body as a man to Abraham? This is not Christians making things up this is what the scripture says, and in no way am I avoiding what you have asked.

      • rocky says:

        if god appeared as cloud and fire in the ot, how come jews and christians don’t have images of holy cloud and holy fire?

        lets see how well you do on this question

        remember, according to christians, cloud contained god

        and fire contained god

        so where are your symbols for these items?

  16. rambo says:

    lets c

    DID god die?

    what is god according flesh worshippin pagan trinitarian crosstians?

    god is divine nature

    god consists of persons

    god is 3 persons

    god is 3 co-equals

    god has 3 persons which have 3 wills

    each person , which makes up god, is INDEPENDANT of the other persons

    god is 3 and each person/member in making communual love with the other

    this is how these pagans difine thier polythiestic pagan diety which is stuffed with 3

    so if 1 PERSON died, then who died?

    person or divine nature?

    isn’t person and divine nature CONNECTED? isn’t my human nature CONNECTED TO MY PERSON?

    if one person is COMPLETE /fully/ 100 percent god

    then didn’t the person who DIED take out the other persons also?

  17. zbhotto says:

    Jews Rabbi in general prayed to get rid of jesus and Jesus AS prayed to be saved from crucifixion and ALLAH SWT accepted the prayer of both parties. This is simply what happened as ALLAH accept the prayer of disbeliiver if He wishes.

  18. rocky says:

    ” We know that God is a spirit so the death of Jesus was simply a separation of the Sons spirit from the Fathers. The human body of Jesus also died, but was also raised incorruptible. This concept is quite reasonable when you put it all together.”

    the trinity = WHO

    the father = person

    the son = person

    the spirit = person

    the trinity = ” i ” ” he ” ” him” ” me” “my”

    the son = SUBSET ” i ” in the trinity I which inclues 3 i’s whatever the hell that means

    so are you saying that THERE was SEPERATION in the ” i” which is WHO ,WHICH equals trinity?

    lets talk about the trinity god which houses the team leader called the father and the bossed around son.

  19. rocky says:

    “Did an “it” die for your sins or a “he”?
    Is Jesus equivalent to God the Son?Yes or no.
    Is that “he” Jesus?Yes or no.”

    3 “he’s” in 1 big “he” i.e trinity

    so according to bull, SUBSET SEPERATED FROM “he” /trinity

    a subset died /lesser part WHICH IS NOT co equal to the trinity died .
    jesus IS NOT trinity so what is he?

    father is NOT trinity so what is he?

    spirist is NOT trinity so what is he?

    notice the “is not”

    it gets worse. each MEMBER IS NOT the other

  20. Linford says:

    Hi guys
    When you Muslims die what actually dies and do you cease to exist or is it by death that you enter another realm which in this case is the spiritual realm?

    When everyone is resurrected on the last day what is resurrected?

  21. semsav12 says:

    Hi guys
    When you Muslims die what actually dies and do you cease to exist or is it by death that you enter another realm which in this case is the spiritual realm?

    Why do you christian’s keep on bringing up “cease to exist”? It is so irrelevant and disingenuous.

    Let’s look at what YHWH has to say, shall we?

    Ezekiel 28:”But you are a mere mortal and not God” as you can see here YHWH makes the distinction to a man that he was mortal and Not God, so it’s not about “ceasing to exist”. Anyways, you believe that Christ after his resurrection has an immortal body now, right? was it immortal prior to resurrection?

    Who was Dead on the cross?

    Was anyone dead on the cross?

    Did impersonal human flesh die on the cross?

    Is Jesus the same as God the Son?

    once you give clear explicit answers. The game is over.

    • rocky says:

      “When you Muslims die what actually dies and do you cease to exist or is it by death that you enter another realm which in this case is the spiritual realm?”

      does the creator of spiritual realm , who knows the insides and outsides of spiritual realm, who controls spiritual realm , really need to kill of his battery and enter in it himself? DOES god LOSE all power before he enters into spiritual realm? if yes, then did god enter as a disabled god?

      does divine JUSTICE require that god PUNISH a lesser version of himself or completely/fully divine version of himself?

      if a lesser version, then how did the divine version experience what the lesser version experienced?

  22. rocky says:

    “His divine nature meant that death could not keep him down. His divine nature is what assures us that he is God. He conquered the grave and sin.
    Who else could do that?”

    how much of divine nature did god use to SEPERATE himself from his father?
    if the father was USING the same divine nature than the father kept himself glued to something. what was that something? holy spirit? the trinity? does supernatural abilities mean that creator of death , who is in controll of death, WA S temporarily CONTROLLed BY death? since the father was not kept down and neither the spirit, then what NATURE KEPT them always in CONTROL of death?

  23. rocky says:

    “When you Muslims die what actually dies and do you cease to exist or is it by death that you enter another realm which in this case is the spiritual realm?”

    did an omni everything god,who is everywhere in his power and knowledge, ENTER another realm?

  24. defendchrist says:

    Hi Semsav12

    would it be true to say to you that YOU use YOUR body?

    1. who was dead on the cross?
    the name given to the WORD of God who is God is Jesus.

    2. was anyone dead on the cross?
    very stupid question when anyone dies they cease to use the human body am I right or wrong?
    So the Son of God when the human body or the physical life ceased was in the spiritual realm.

    Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    can I remind you that the flesh was provided by Mary his mother.

    4.The NAME of the Son of God is JESUS.

  25. rocky says:

    “very stupid question when anyone dies they cease to use the human body am I right or wrong?
    So the Son of God when the human body or the physical life ceased was in the spiritual realm.”

    AN omni present god entered spiritual world as what? as a god or as a DISABLED god? and if as a disabled god, was his enabled /fully complete god parts watching him enter the spiritual realm? if his fully complete/enabled parts were OMNIPRESENT, did they meet the son in the spiritual realm considering that they are omnipresent?
    so what % of god/how much god entered spiritual realm?

    divine justice requires that SIN requires god CREATED blood
    so in gods divine justice, god must kill himself, otherwise everybody is going to hell.

    in hell, god will PUNISH sinners
    according to jesus, god will, “destroy soul and flesh”

    god did not destroy his soul and flesh in hell, he simply jitterbug /teleport from one place to the other and then rewarded himself with delights of heaven

    hear is the problem

    if divine justice is from AN OMNI EVERYTHING being and the romans CANNOT give divine JUSTICE because they are MERE mortals with NO omni everything powers, then DID god PUNISH his son/himself?

    if an OMNI everything god did not punish himself, the DIVINE justice has not been done. if god GAVE his powers to the romans, then they became divine justice and god was STRIPPED of his own divine justice and this means god shares his powers with mere humans

    for divine justice to work they must come from diety himself and then this means god beat himself up/punished himself / through boiling water over himself /punished a LESSER part of himself and then felt sad for doing it to himself.

  26. rocky says:

    dont forget to answer this question

    Does gods divine justice require that he punish his divine self or his CREATED/disabled LESSER SELF?

  27. rocko says:

    you know they say that the fitra in man naturally tells him not to attribute filth to the almighty, now read this, please for the love of god, can one really say that the almighty formed within his essense a human nature?

    quote:

    Jamie Steele, exactly what bodily functions is a 100% human Jesus allowed to have or is it a sin to discussion Jesus’ 100% human bodily functions?

    Get real here! You and your fellow righteous Christians have “pious-ed” a 100% human Jesus right out of existence.

    So, lets start at a 100% human Jesus and for every 100% human bodily function he did not have like us mortals, lets deduct some percentage points. I’ll be generous, and only remove 3.8% for each body function you feel he did not have like us normal humans.

    Here’s my list so please cross out any bodily function Jesus did not have as a 100% human man: (I know you don’t know the real Jesus, but let say he was mostly like the majority of us humans)

    A. Wet Dreams; B. Colds and Flues every winter ; C. Sexual thoughts (either gay or straight);

    D. Picking his nose; E. Bad breath; F. Bad teeth / a rotten tooth; G. Nightmares; H.

    I. Indigestion; J. Needed vision correction; K. Gas; L. Over weight or under weight; M. Balding;

    N. Constipation; O. Balding / hair loss; P. Diarrhea / food poisoning; Q. Nervousness; R. Depression;

    S. Stinking rectum / hemorrhoids; T. High blood pressure; U. Acne as a teenager; V. Bucked teeth;

    W. High / Low blood sugar; X. Alleges; Y. Warts; Z. Cold sores.

    These are just 26 right off the top of my head. So even if you reject 13 (50%) of the ones you think keeps Jesus from being “God in the flesh”, you still have to reconstruct a fully 100% human Jesus who is now only 50% human.

  28. rocki says:

    People mistake death for ceasing to exist or irreversable destruction.
    YOUR SENSES AND ABILITIES DO CEASE TO EXIST , U MAYBE CONCIOUS , BUT U ARE LOCKED, NOT SOME ANGEL FLYING ABOUT AND TELEPORTING AND EATING ICE CREAM , UR SENSES WILL BE LOCKED.

    Jesus who is God died, but he did not cease to exist nor was he completely destroyed.

    jEsus IS NOT god. Man where do you people study? IF THE BLOODY SPIRIT NEVER REQUIRED RESSURECTION, THEN IT REMAINED ALIVE, U IDIOT, DID THE SPIRIT REQUIRE RESSURECTION OR ARE U SO STUPID THAT U CANNOT C THIS?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47qzju-zSkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    I don’t have a problem with that. His divine component was separated from God (died), for a certain period

    Lol then was the person of jesus A SINGLE PERSON SEPERATED FROM THE OTHER 2?did jesus divine component have a share of energies like all power , allknowing which was split in 2 also? Or did the 2 persons fully possess their omni everything attributes or when the 1 split from the trinity, he took a SHARE of divine attributes? If yes , then what does omnipotence + omniscience + omnipresent ÷ 3 mean? Lol

    ?
    untill he overcame sin and death. God did not completley die anyway as the other two persons in the God head were still alive and without sin.
    SO WHAT IF THE 2ND P DECIDED TO TAKE A BREAK FROM THE TRINITY? EverYone has right 2 a holiday. DIDNT THE son PREPLAN his Divine diVorce IN THE EARLY DAYS?2 persons in the PAGAN god head were FULLY FUNCTIONAL WITHOUT the son?

  29. rocky says:

    look, anthony buzzard addresses the christian nonsense

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47qzju-zSkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    he is using the old testament to refute you.

  30. response to defend krishna about memra of yhwh says:

    a pagan polythiest by the name of defend krist wrote:

    look at the Jewish Targums, which were interpretive translations in Aramaic of the Hebrew Old Testament, because the Targumin treats God’s word (Aramaic=Memra) as an actual hypostasis distinct from God
    And they heard the voice of the Memra of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (Targum Onkelos, Genesis 3)

    And the Memra of the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Behold, the world which I have created is manifest before Me; and how thinkest thou that the place in the midst whereof thou art, is not revealed before Me? Where is the commandment which I taught thee? (Fragmentary Targum, Genesis 3)

    And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, “If the Memra of YHWH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the Memra of YHWH be my God. (Targum Neofiti, Genesis 28)

    end quote

    defend krisht, why DON’T YOU make EVERY SINGLE ABILITY of god, EVERY SINGLE ACTION VERB, ever single THOUGHT , in to CONCIOUS beings?
    why don’t you assume that gods ABILITIES took on the form of daughters and sons? since yhwh has a person attached to his mouth before he speaks , then i guess “arm of yhwh” means NOT power of strength but a CONCIOUS arm which speaks and talks to yhwh and does things for him. yhwhs arm/power can DETACH itself from yhwh and go for walks on earth?

    • Truthian says:

      Christians don’t miss any small detail which is open to interpretation according to their man made belief. For instance, Nemra you mentiones or they claim “Elohim”is plural so this proves trinity.
      When we describe god or try to understand god with our imagination , we will fall into fallacies. If some people in Papua worship pigs or pagans worship idols that is because of their imaginations and false interpretations.
      Gen 1:26 “And God said: Let us make mankind in our image..”
      What is the god’s image? Does it mean here physical image? If we interpreted as physical image ,this is open to all kind of interpretations. Christians point out God’s Image to prove Jesus’ divinity.
      Our physical image is from the earth that will go back to earth and dissolve in it. Our physical image also needs to eat and drink , sleep and go to bathroom. Animals also have same character and attributes of human physical body. Angels were created from light so they don’t need to eat and sleep.
      Therefore, the image of God can only mean the attributes of God. The God Almighty is merciful, compassionate, forgiving, Loving, Patient, etc. Mankind has these attributes as well and makes mankind likeness to God Almighty.
      In Islam, God Almighty is beyond our imagination, so we are not to think so much about the essence of God Almighty. This keeps us from using our imaginations and interpret according to our understanding.
      Instead, concentrate on the Attributes of God Almighty: strive to be more patient, more forgiving, etc. So you will become godly. This is the likeness to God.
      However, mankind will never be THE FORGIVING as one of the attributes of god for example. Mankind can be forgiving.
      We say “Allahu Akbar” that is to compare one of God’s attribute to the other God’s attributes not the attributes that we have. God is “The Greatest” then what do we need to compare the god to? God can only be the greatest comparing Himself by Himself. We can forgive but our forgiving is not equal to God’s forgiving, it can be only likeness. We can only compare God’s forgiveness to God’s generosity because God is Akbar “the Greatest”
      Anyone who will use the interpretations, imaginations, or man made doctrines to describe the essence of God Almighty will fall into mistake and end up in hell, God forbid. When anyone uses the doctrine of trinity to describe the essence, that person is speaking only from imagination without prove. saying god has a son, this statement is also wrong. Describing the essence of God with a son or any claims about the essence can only lead to polytheism and infidelity. Because you need to witness in person to claim such things about the essence. Not because of your interpretations of what is written in OT or NT, or you heard from the preacher n the church. If someone comes to you and make claims about someone you can believe, but that doe not make the claim correct.
      It may be a lie as well. But when you witness it personally, now you know the truth. So speaking such things about the essence of the Creator without witnessing personally puts you in falling into a big mistake.
      That is why Muslims say “I bear witness that there in no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Slave and Messenger.”
      The question for Muslims are they really witnessing? They can only witness if they make jihad against their egos “Nafs” and granted higher clearance and stations.
      May Allah Almighty makes us among the ones that truly witness.

  31. Truthian says:

    Interesting arguments,
    Trinity does not make sense, and even Christians admit this fact. But God works in mysterious ways so just believe in trinity because faith makes you free?
    Where did Tertullian get the idea of trinity? Egyptian trinity may be the answer. Horus, Osiris, and Isis. Father ,son , and holy Spirit.
    Christians must look at these sources instead of trying to prove the doctrine from the OT.
    How about Babylonian Trinity, Nimrod, Semiramis , and Tammuz.
    Semiramis is represented by dove and Holy Spirit.
    Well , “TAU” of Tammuz, Christians got the cross symbol from the first letter of Tammuz, later they dropped the line make it “t” I guess middle letter of Satan. 3rd letter from the beginning and third letter from the end.
    How about Greek trinity Zeus, Apollo , and Athena . Father Zeus, his son Apollo
    Roman trinity Jupiter, Mercury, and Venus.
    The concept of “Word” “Logos” in gospel of John, was taken from Plato
    who was the scholar of Hellenistic Judaism. Well he has a trinity too!
    In Plato’s philosophy it was the Father who is unknown, Logos, and the spirit world.
    Well, we know now where Tertullian get his idea of Trinity. The question is how did the doctrine bring into Christianity? Year 321, Council of Nicea. Pagan Emperor Constantine wanted to unite his kingdom’s religions. There you go , trinity is common doctrine in all pagan religions , and let it be forced into Christianity as well.
    My question to Christians:
    Adam came down from heave in the form of a man that is he was not begotten. Jesus was begotten , and came out of vagina, so did god come out of vagina? Which is more glorious Adam’s coming on the earth as a man or Jesus was begotten?
    Is that the glory of God to bring his son to this world out of Vagina?
    In a stable? But you guys say Jesus is god so would it be proper for god to come into this world out of vagina? It would be more glorious for God to come to this earth like Adam.
    Note: Actions are judged according to intentions, My intention was to show falsehood of Christians, not to insult God Almighty and Prophet Jesus as.

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