Jesus was hungry

Was Jesus really hungry? Was it just a parable? What was it?

by Ibn Anwar, BHsc (Hons)

Before we delve into the topic proper we should briefly establish the relevant framework upon which the whole discussion will be built so as to get better clarity. For a long time Biblical scholars have noticed distinct similarities and dissimilarities between the first three Gospels Matthew, Mark and Luke. This relationship that is shared by all three Gospels gave rise to what is called Synoptic problem. The term “Synoptic” means that the three Gospels are interrelated and can be seen together. [1] Most New Testament scholars today subscribe to the Markan/Marcan priority hypothesis which was first proposed in 1863. What that means is that Mark was the first Gospel to be written which was then followed  by Matthew and Luke. Directly related to the Marcan priority is the idea that both Matthew and Luke employed Mark as a common source for their respective Gospels. The Marcan material present in Matthew and Luke is described as the “Triple Tradition” and in terms of statistics, eighty percent of Mark’s verses are found in Matthew while sixty five percent are found in Luke. [2] This position is called the “Two-Source hypothesis” which is according to Dr. L. Michael White “the most commonly used theory among New Testament scholars…”. [3] Writing about the Two-Source Hypothesis Mark Goodrace says:

“Right down to the present, this has remained the most popular way to solve the SynopticProblem. It has been finely tuned, has been given many variations, and has been challenged from many quarters, but this basic two-pronged hypothesis has remained fairly effectively intact. In Germany it is still very much what one might call ‘critical orthodoxy’. Famously, in the mid 1960s, one biblical critic spoke about abandoning use of the term ‘hypothesis’ to describe it altogether. ‘We can in fact regard it as an assured findings’, he said.” [4]

Thus, Mark was written first then the authors of Matthew and Luke employed the Gospel of Mark as a common source for their own productions. In this article we will analyse one out of many of the examples of how a story that was first produced in Mark is reproduced by the other two Synoptic Gospels with some modifications resulting in certain theological implications. The example that we will focus on in this discussion is the story of Jesus and the fig tree which is found in Mark 11, Matthew 12 and Luke 13 which is reproduced by the author in a rather different form as we shall see.

The following is Mark’s version of the incident which is the earliest among the Gospels:

“On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard it.” (Mark 11:12-14) *In Mark’s version of the episode the tree withered overnight rather than immediately(verse 20).

The following is Matthew’s version of the incident:

“In the morning, as he was returning to the city, he became hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the wayside, he went to it and found nothing on it but leaves. And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again!” And the fig tree withered at once.”(Matthew 21:18-19)

The following is Luke’s version:

“And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?” (Luke 13:6-7)

Reading the earliest version in Mark one gets the impression that Jesus was literally hungry and sought to satisfy that by looking for fruits on a fig tree. He got disappointed as he found the tree without fruit because it was not yet its season to bear fruit. In his disappointment he curses it and the tree withers and dies. The New Jerome Biblical Commentary states that, “The way the story is told suggests that Jesus really expected to find fruit on the tree and destroyed it out of disappointment.” [5] Thus according to the author of Mark, Jesus was very human in this episode and out of ignorance he sought to find fruit on a barren tree in order to satiate his craving. The author of Matthew retells essentially the same episode but with some small, yet significant improvements. In Mark’s version the reader may notice the section that has been emphasised namely, “it was not the season for figs”. This enables readers to make the conclusion that Jesus did not know that the tree would be barren as he was not familiar with the seasons which in the words of the New Jerome Biblical Commentary makes Jesus’ behaviour seems “irrational”.[6]  This means that  Mark’s account of this incident has a low Christology of Jesus. Low Christology means that the depiction of Jesus in a particular scenario is less than what the typical mainstream Christian depiction presents i.e. both human and totally divine. High Christology on the other hand presents a superior Jesus with superior attributes. Working on the Marcan material the author of Matthew improves the narrative as any reasonable reader can see. What the author of Matthew did was to remove the offending low Christology part that says, “it was not the season for figs”. By removing that section Jesus is no longer seen as unreasonably ignorant which is a quality unfitting for Matthew’s Jesus. Thus the New Jerome Biblical Commentary remarks, “Matthew omits Mark’s detail that it was not the season for figs, because this would make Jesus’ expectation unreasonable and capricious, and changes a wish into a curse.” In addition, while Mark’s Jesus made the tree wither overtime, Matthew’s Jesus on the other hand destroyed the tree with his command immediately and so the New Jerome Biblical Commentary admits that Matthew “…hightens the miraculous by having the withering tree occur immediately rather than overnight.” [7] What the author of Luke does is totally different. Rather than reporting Jesus’ experience with the fig tree he transforms it into a parable told by Jesus. Commenting on this the New Jerome Biblical Commentary says, “Luke omits this story in its historicized form because he has already reported a parabolic form of it in 13:6-9.”[8]

Was the whole thing just a parable? Many Christians that I have spoken to try to excuse the clear embarrassing implications of the story in Mark to Jesus’ alleged divinity by saying that it’s a parable. Is it really just a parable? No, it is not simply a parable according to the authors of Mark and Matthew as they actually go on to describe the tree literally withering as witnessed by the disciples as Mark 11:20 says, “As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots.” In Matthew’s version the disciples marvelled at what they had seen and asked Jesus why it had withered at once to which Jesus gave the assurance that they would be able to do far greater things than what they had witnessed(Matthew 21:20-22). The excuse given by such Christians clearly do not hold water. In sum, the earliest version of the incident among the Synoptics is Mark which essentially shows Jesus going through hunger with the natural desire to satiate it with fruits from a fig tree without realising or knowing that the tree would not have any fruit on it because it was not its season. The expression regarding the season in Mark is especially significant as it necessarily implies that the tree itself is not inherently barren, but will in fact bear fruit when the season comes sometime in the future, yet Jesus for some untold reason destroys it anyway. In the words of the New Jerome Biblical Commentary which is an excellent Christian publication, “Jesus’ behaviour seems irrational and destructive.”[9]

In essence Mark’s low Christology version paints a portrait of Jesus that is embarrassing to Christians. It certainly does not help the Trinitarian Christian cause which aims  to deify him. The story has strong setbacks for the Trinitarian agenda. Shabir Ally in his book makes an excellent case on this point:

Now, a few things are clear from this episode.

1. Jesus did not know the tree had no fruit until he went up to the tree and found nothing but leaves.
2. When Jesus saw leaves from a distance he hoped to find fruit on the tree.
3. It was not fig season, and this is why the tree had no figs. This comment from Mark clearly, implies that it was a perfectly good tree. If the tree was barren, Mark’s comment about the season would have been pointless and misleading.
4. Jesus did not know it was not fig season. If he had known this, he would not have expected the tree to have fruit, and he would not have cursed the tree for having no fruit.
5. The whole thing began when Jesus felt hungry.

Now it is easy to understand that the human Jesus felt hunger, and that the human Jesus did not know it was not fig season and so mistakenly expected the tree to have fruit. A divine Jesus would have known all these, and would not have to go to the tree to discover it had no fruit; he would not have been hungry in the first place. Now the cursing of the tree is a little more difficult for those who assert the divinity of Jesus. His miracles, they say, are performed by his divine nature. Okay, so the divine Jesus cursed the tree. But why? Why ruin a tree which in Mark’s view was a perfectly good tree? Come fig season this tree would have had fruit and others could have eaten from it. The reason was that the human Jesus made a mistake. But why did the divine Jesus act upon the mistake of the human Jesus? Does the human mind in Jesus guide the divine nature of him? Actually, there is no warrant for all this speculation, for scripture nowhere says that Jesus has two natures. Those who want to believe contrary to scripture that Jesus was fully human yet fully divine can go on speculating. [10]

 

Excursus

Credit is due to our frequent visitor The Bull whose comment gave the author the encouragement to write this article:

The Bull said

February 11, 2012 at 7:27 pm e

Hi Rocko

Why don’t you investigate it (figs) via google search, you’ll find an answer or answer(s).

 

References:

[1] Brown, R. E. (1997). An Introduction to the New Testament. U.S. : Yale University Press. p. 111

[2] Ibid.

[3] White, L. M. (2010). Scripting Jesus: The Gospel in Rewrite. U.S. : HarperOne. p. 428

[4] Goodrace, M. (2001). The Synoptic Problem: A Way Through the Maze. London: Sheffield Academic Press. p. 21

[5] Harrington, D. J. (1990). The Gospel According to Mark. In Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer & Roland E. Murphy (Eds.), The New Jerome Biblical Commentary. New Jersey: Prentice Hall. p. 620

[6] Ibid. p. 620

[7] Viviano, B. T. (1990). The Gospel According to Matthew. In Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer & Roland E. Murphy (Eds.), The New Jerome Biblical Commentary. New Jersey: Prentice Hall. pp. 664

[8] Ibid.

[9] Harrington, D.J. Op. Cit. p. 619

[10] Shabir Ally (2008). Is Jesus God? The Bible says No!. Ontario, Canada: Al-Attique Publishers Inc. pp. 57-58

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83 Responses to “Jesus was hungry”

  1. rocko says:

    now think about this

    mark writers his STORY in a location

    matthew writes his story in a location

    luke writes his story in a location

    BEFORE matthew produced his VERSION , were READERS OF mark , who READ , “FOR IT was not the SEASON for figs ”

    “IN THE MORNING AS THEY PASSED BY, THEY SAW THE FIG TREE WITHERED AWAY TO ITS ROOTS.

    PETER SAID, “rabbi look ! the fig treethat you cursed has withered.”

    WERE READERS

    WHO HAD NOT SEEN MAT + LUKES VERSION automatically assume that it was all a parable? if it was “all a parable” why is mark USING DECEPTION in his WORDING? WHY matthew in his CHOICE OF word is INTERPRETING MARK AS IF he (matthew) thought that it was A REAL incident? do you christians even have an ACCOUNT OF MARKS audience saying , ” this is a prable…” ? is telling the truth and nothing but the WHOLE truth GOOD advice? then why do you christians FOLLOW the advice of matthew and luke who MAKE OMMISSION and TAKE REALITY away from the incident?

  2. rocko says:

    parables can be DERIVEN EVEN AFTER A LITERAL action, but WHY would a god portray himself as ignorant in a parable? why would he make the tree LOOK innocent and himself a HOOLIGAN lol? why would he use LANGUAGE WHICH doesn’t sound parabolic at all? LOL
    “you can ALSO do this if you have faith”

    WHAT , A PARABLE? lol you canALSO DO A parable? LOL LOL

    the “son of god” is making PROMISES after he DREAMS up a FICTIONAL EVENT in his head LOL

    then he tells his apostles , ” you can ALSO DREAM up fictional events ” ? what?

    ”If you have faith and don’t doubt, I promise that you can do what I did to this tree” (Matthew 21: 21 (CEV)

    LOL LOL

  3. rocko says:

    ITS Funny isn’t it if we can use the “parabolic” BRUSH and paint ALL other verses with the “parabolic” brush even those WHICH SOUND LIKE parables , but are real events lol lol

    ANY HONEST PERSON should LOOK AT THE STORY with the christian SPIN omitted. LOOK AT THE STORY AND READ IT 2 TIMES. clearly the omniscient god of christians IS NOT OMNISCIENT in this STORY and VERY VERY HOOLIGAN AND IGNORANT!

    “why do you THINK evil IN YOUR thoughts”

    LOL

    but then why would a god NOT know WHY A TREE CANNOT PRODUCE figs in the WRONG SEASON?

    why go up to it to FIND figs? and if it was a parable, why not make DISTINCTION between OBEDIANT TREE VS disobedient tree and apply to HUMAN NATURE or soemthing like that? LOL

    jesus’ HUNGER GOT THE BETTER OF him LOL
    he lost his TEMPER and FIRED A CURSE AT A HARMLESS INNOCENT TREE WHICH WAS DOING ITS JOB .

    jebus was ANGRY WITH A TREEE FOR NO REASON AT ALL!

    lol i guess MARKS VERSION DOESN’T GET REPLAYED in church sermons AS OFTEN AS lukes + mats VERSION LOL LOL

    I bet in churches THEY TOTALLY LEAVE out the INNOCENCE OF THE POOR AND HUMBLE FIG TREE!!

    i bet they QUICKLY SUMMARISE THE BITS THEY LIKE LOL

    this BRINGS ME TO ANOTHER THOUGHT

    if the gospel WRITERS WHO CHOOSING FAVOURITE BITS, THEN THAT MEANS THEY WOULD LEAVE OUT BITS THEY DIDN’T LIKE LOL LOL

    THE DANGER OF SUMMARIZING MIGHT BE APPARANT HERE LOL

    even in debates frostian missionaries DON’T FOCUS ON THE SMALL DETAILS WHICH ARE DISASTOROUS TO THIER APOLOGETICS.

    FRIENDS thier jebus can INSTANT cure the CANNANITE WOMANS DAUGHTER using his VOICE , he doesn’t even TOUCH her to cure her of her ailment. christians see this as REAL

    but when he uses his voice to KILL AN INNOCENT TREE this is PARABLE LOL LOL LOL LOL

    PATHETIC PATHETIC

    picka nd choose brothers

    PICK AND CHOOSE

    kekekekekekekekekekekeekkekekekekekekekek

  4. rocko says:

    ”18 When Jesus got up the next morning, he was hungry. He started out for the city”.

    LITERAL

    ”19 and along the way he saw a fig tree. But when he came to it, he found only leaves and no figs. So he told the tree, ”You will never again grow any fruit!” At once the fig tree dried up”.

    LITERAL

    Now, this is intriguing. If you’re hungry, and the previous verse says ”he was hungry”, you look for something to eat – and this is exactly what Jesus did. In his search for food he came across a fig tree but was disappointed that the tree had ”only leaves and no figs” to eat.

    maybe the jc in matthew didn’t have a good meal AFTER he vandalised and whiped out the traders in the temple? all that violent work would require good protein shake the following day.

  5. Dr.Mustafa says:

    Some Christians defend it by saying the tree was not a good one or that it was not a healthy tree that is why Jesus destroyed it .

    Even if we go with this explanation why did Jesus destroyed it he could have cured it has he not cured blind and lame men has he not raised dead, so why this different attitude towards trees ?

  6. Dr.Mustafa says:

    ERROR IN BIBLE

    “You shall not curse the DEAF, nor put a stumbling block before the blind, but shall fear your God: I am the Lord” (Leviticus 19:14)

    Here Jesus cursed a tree and trees are deaf !

  7. Dr.Mustafa says:

    CURSE IN OLD TESTAMENT AND JESUS CURSE ON THE TREE

    Deuteronomy 27:15-22

    15 “‘Cursed be the man who makes a carved or cast metal image, an abomination to the Lord, a thing made by the hands of a craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’
    16 “‘Cursed be anyone who dishonors his father or his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
    17 “‘Cursed be anyone who moves his neighbor’s landmark.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
    18 “‘Cursed be anyone who misleads a blind man on the road.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
    19 “‘Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
    20 “‘Cursed be anyone who lies with his father’s wife, because he has uncovered his father’s nakedness.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
    21 “‘Cursed be anyone who lies with any kind of animal.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
    22 “‘Cursed be anyone who lies with his sister, whether the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

    I WANT TO ASK CHRISTIANS WHAT DID THE TREE DID OF THE ABOVE THAT HE WAS CURSED ?

  8. The Bull says:

    The problem with the views expressed in this article are that the following assumptions have been made and some other information has not even been addressed.

    Assumptions made by the author:
    1. Because there was no mention of the fig tree being withered immediately in Mark meant that it didn’t happen in that account. (In fact, the mention in Mark that the fig tree was later ‘dried up from the roots’ indicates a further development in the drying had taken place).

    2. That the parable of the fig tree in Luke was inspired by the account in Mark 11 and Matthew 21 (even though the accounts are completely different).

    Information not addressed:
    The existence of ‘early figs’ or ‘taqsh’, which is why the tree could have had fruit even though it was technically not the ‘season for figs’.

    Also, if the writers of the NT conspired in a sinister plot to ‘jack up’ the NT would they not have ‘changed’ the account to make it match more obviously.

    The article tries hard to bring Christ and the N.T down and could have almost worked but for a little more information and commonsense.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      The Bull’s lack of intelligence is always shown in every one of his comments. In this latest entry The Bull shows that he has difficulty understanding simple texts. The Bull thinks that I am assuming that the Marcan narrative does not have the tree withering away immediately as opposed to Matthew’s. Is it based on my assumption? Any reasonable reader(The Bull isn’t one) can see in the quoted passages that Matthew’s version has the tree withering away immediately. In fact, Matthew uses the expression”at once” to emphasise the immediacy. Mark’s version on the other hand has the tree withering away much later(verse 20) which then leads Peter who was there when Jesus cursed the tree to remark “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.” This remark shows that the tree didn’t wither the moment the curse was made in Mark’s version. Had that happened Peter would have made the remark right there and then. Matthew removes Peter from the scene and brings the withering forward to the scene of the fig tree rather than later as we see in Mark. We know perfectly well that Matthew has revised the story by looking at the chronology of events that took place. In Mark the fig tree episode takes place before the cleansing of the temple. In Matthew the cleansing of the temple happens before the fig tree episode. The Bull claims that the accounts are completely different. Any fool can see that The Bull is a bigger fool for making such a silly claim. Read the passages for yourselves and see that the basic theme of the fig tree episode in all three gospels are the same i.e. a fig tree is cursed for not bearing fruit. They differ in the details and Luke rather than having Jesus experience the event has him telling it instead as a parable. What the Bull fails to recognise is that all of the information that I have provided have not been cocncocted by Muslims but it was Bible believing Christian scholars who put forward those points which we can all check up by simply critically looking at the texts. The rest of the nonsense about “information not addressed” is inconsequential as I have already refuted him on “if the writers of the NT conspired in a sinister plot to ‘jack up’ the NT would they not have ‘changed’ the account to make it match more obviously.” last year. In fact, pretty much everything The Bull has ever said has been soundly refuted time and again.

      • JESUS says:

        The bull is just trying to protect his lord from the bullying act he did on a tree.

        He thinks people don’t have eyes and does not read the obvious contradiction in the parallel accounts in the bible about this story

        He accuses brother anwar of taking assumptions despite he quoted christian scholars themselves on this topic

        I think when God was distributing brain to humans these Christians were not present .Had they been present they would not be so dumb about very obvious things like these

        ANY WAY VERY GOOD ARTICLE AS USUAL BY BROTHER ANWAR .It has caught the bull by its horn

      • The Bull says:

        Hi Ibn Anwar

        Thanks for admitting that ‘pretty much everything’ has been refuted and not ‘everything’.

        At first glance it could appear that the miracles happened at a different time. I admit that. However, in Marks account it doesn’t actually state when the tree withered. It had certainly withered well before Peter saw it the next morning.

        When I said the accounts are completely different I meant the parable in Luke is almost completely different to the accounts in Matthew and Mark, showing you can’t necessarily link them. The accounts in Matthew and Mark are not too dissimilar.

        The ‘bible believing’ scholars are not so at all. They are trying to undermine the accuracy of the scriptures and the glory of Christ.

        So what if the chronology is a bit different in each account. Is it the truth? That is what is important.

        • Ibn Anwar says:

          I said “pretty much everything” because there were things that you did say that were not worth while refuting as they were worse than nonsense. Otherwise, none of your arguments have thus far remained intact. They have all been utterly refuted.
          The bull said:
          “At first glance it could appear that the miracles happened at a different time. I admit that. However, in Marks account it doesn’t actually state when the tree withered. It had certainly withered well before Peter saw it the next morning.”

          You are lying yourself as none of us are being fooled. I have already pointed out that Peter’s exclamation about the withering came in the morning in Mark’s account indicating that the tree did not wither “at once” as Peter and the other disciples were there to witness Jesus’ hunger and cursing(vv. 14). It is upon Peter’s remark that Jesus in Mark promised the disciples including Peter that they would do even greater things than what they had seen him doing such as moving a mountain into the sea. In Matthew’s account that promise comes immediately after the tree withered “at once” prompted by the disciples remark how did the tree wither at once. In Mark’s account the cleansing of the temple is “sandwiched” between Peter’s exclamation and the fig tree incident whilst in Matthew the fig tree and the remark attributed to the disciples(not only to Peter) follow one right after the other with the cleansing of the temple happening before both instances. How much clearer can it be to a non-idiotic person that Matthew has improved the narrative?

          The Bull said:
          When I said the accounts are completely different I meant the parable in Luke is almost completely different to the accounts in Matthew and Mark, showing you can’t necessarily link them. The accounts in Matthew and Mark are not too dissimilar.

          My reply:
          “almost completely different” is definitely not the same as “even though the accounts are completely different” which was your initial claim. Can you please be consistent mister clown?

          The Bull said:
          The ‘bible believing’ scholars are not so at all. They are trying to undermine the accuracy of the scriptures and the glory of Christ.

          My reply:
          Those scholars are Christians who do believe in the Bible(though not in inerrancy) as they subscribe to doctrines such as the resurrection of Jesus which is only taught in the Bible. The difficulty for you is to admit that the Bible has got problems even though most reasonable people can see that including avid Christian believers.

  9. rocko says:

    “1. Because there was no mention of the fig tree being withered immediately in Mark meant that it didn’t happen in that account. (In fact, the mention in Mark that the fig tree was later ‘dried up from the roots’ indicates a further development in the drying had taken place).”

    the worship of a human being has blinded you very badly.

    HAVE YOU JUXTAPOSED the narratives in mat and mark?

    MATTHEW

    DAY 1

    DRIVES OUT MONEY CHANGERS
    LEAVES CITY SPENDS NIGHT IN BETHANY

    NIGHT NIGHT NIGHT

    V 12-17

    DAY 2

    HUNGRY . CURSES FIG TREE
    WITHERS AT ONCE

    MORNING MORNING MORNING

    MARK

    DAY 1

    WENT into TEMPLE
    LOOKED AROUND
    DID NOTHING ON DAY 1
    “IT WAS ALREADY LATE”
    GOES TO BETHANY WITH DECIPLES

    DAY 2

    CURSES FIG TREE
    DRIVES OUT MONEY CHANGERS
    EVENING. WENT OUT OF THE CITY

    DAY 3
    MORNING MORNING MORNING
    “RABBI LOOK! the tree that you CURSED HAS WITHERED .

    HOW IN THE HELL AN IMMEDIATE AFFECT WAS NOT NOTICED ON DAY 1 IF YOU BELIEVE mATTHEW has it RIGHT?

    NOW I just looked at the narrative again and i note the
    FOLLOWING

    MARK 11 : 14

    he (your meat god) said to it, “may no one ever eat FRUIT from you again.” and his deciples HEARD IT

    HEARD his CURSE

    now let me ask you something, if mark was honest in his narration and NEW THAT THE DECIPLES HEARD the curse AND SAW WHAT THE DAMN CURSE HAD DONE TO THE tree I.E “… WITHERED AT ONCE”
    WHY IS he giving his READERS THE IMPRESSION that the affect of the CURSE WAS NOTICED NOT ON DAY 1 , BUT DAY 3? THIS IS CLEARLY A CASE OF LYING AND DECEIVING your READERS.

    “in the MORNING AS THEY PASSED BY , THEY SAW THE FIG TREE WITHERED AWAY TO ITS ROOTS”

    WE know what PROBLEM this had CAUSED for matthew, he DID NOT WANT his READERS TO GET THE IMPRESSION that THEIR WAS A DELAY in WITHERING . WE know that jezuz’ , in mark, miracles DON’T TAKE IMMEDIATE AFFECT AND THATS why the other 2 , mat+ luke, DROPS THEM

    for example:

    (5) Mark 8:24-26—the different stages of a particular healing story, omitted in Matthew and Luke. The blind man is partially healed the first time by Jesus, then fully the second time. This is the only
    healing story in the synoptic gospels which required two stages. Perhaps this was the reason for its omission in Matthew/Luke, or perhaps it was the fact that saliva was used as the means of healing.
    32

    so WHO IS lying? EITHER THE deciples ONLY HEARD THE CURSE (mark) or they heard the CURSE AND saw what it had IMMEDIATELY done to the tree ON THE SAME day AFTER THE curse. please don’t try your dirty christian APOLOGETIC spin by saying that day one means day 3 and day 3 the tree was SEEN. dont try to mess about with the WORD “AFTER”

    “Information not addressed:
    The existence of ‘early figs’ or ‘taqsh’, which is why the tree could have had fruit even though it was technically not the ‘season for figs’.”

    it could of had electrical LIGHT bulbs on it and a model of an angel sitting right on top of it?

    you know what you are , a disgusting christian apologists who will EVEN make an INNOCENT AND HARMLESS tree evil. any dealings jebus has with trees, then the tree must be wrong. let me see where you get your idea.
    WHY WOULD MATTHEW OMIT “FOR IT WAS NOT THE SEASON FOR FIGS”
    SO then christians LIKE YOU can argue , “we DON’T KNOW WHAT SEASON it was…” “it must have BEEN THE RIGHT SEASON” see, SPECULATION. ommission CREATES ideas for you christian apologists to ESCUSE your gods crimes !
    it said he FOUND NOTHING BUT LEAVES, WHERE THE p****k are your ‘early figs’
    ? why was an all knowing god short sighted?

    mark:
    “SEEING IN THE distance a FIG TREE , he went to c whether PERHAPS he would FIND anything ON IT…. he fOUND NOTHING BUT LEAVES…

    do you not know that your BLASPHEMY TO BASTARDISE THE TEXT will put you in the DEPTHS OF HELL AND YOUR SOUL AND FLESH WILL BE COOKED AND ROASTED? have you no SHAME? have you no respect for the bible?

  10. rocko says:

    “Information not addressed:
    The existence of ‘early figs’ or ‘taqsh’, which is why the tree could have had fruit even though it was technically not the ‘season for figs’.”

    so every time the text says “he found NOTHING…” OR “saw nothing” or “did nothing” or “eat nothing” then we must assume “could haves” ?

  11. rocko says:

    “Information not addressed:
    The existence of ‘early figs’ or ‘taqsh’, which is why the tree could have had fruit even though it was technically not the ‘season for figs’.”

    you are simply making your god in meat LOOK LIKE A greater moron. why wasn’t “peaceful” “prince of love” “prince of peace” “love thy enemy” “turn they cheek” “meek” greek god you worship PATIENT. wait till the SEASON was in FULL BLOOM , have some ******* patience. look, if you can change marks text by adding words to his narrative ” it was TECHNICALLY NOT…” “COULD have had…” then WHY couldn’t matthew bastardize the narrative? why did MATTHEW omit ” for it was NOT the SEASON for figs” why didn’t he use your “technically” BULL S H IT AND YOUR “tasqsh” bull s h it and your “early fig s ” bull S hite?
    COZ MATTHEW DID NOT UNDERSTAND MARK LIKE YOU TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IT. MATTHEW WASN’T INSPIRED BY hOLY SPIRIT.

    why didn’t mark also WASTE his words informing his readers that …he found nothing but LEAVES… ?

    PERHAPS he WOULD FIND ANYTHING ON IT. WHEN he CAME TO IT , he FOUND NOTHING BUT LEAVES , FOR IT WAS NOT …

    OH YEA LIARS FOR krist, HAVE SOME SHAME.

  12. rocko says:

    “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”

    LIKE I said you make jesus look like a moron. ” may no one EVER eat fruit from you again BECAUSE YOU have ‘early little figs’ not juicy ‘grown up’ figs”

    NO PATIENCE. NO RESPECT. HARMLESS INNOCENT TREE WHICH COULDN’T DO NOTHING TO DEFEND ITSELFS. IT OPENED NOT ITS MOUTH WHEN PPL ABUSED IT. IT WAS KILLED FOR THE TRANSGRESSION OF OTHERS.

  13. The Bull says:

    Hi Ibn Anwar

    Your argument is not without some merit and some of your points are valid.

    One possible explanation for the apparent differences between Mark and Matthew is that both accounts are true and not exclusive of the other. We know that Marks Gospel is really Peters Gospel and this could explain why his activity is specifically captured in this account. What I propose is that Jesus repeated (and added) to Peter what he had earlier said to the disciples when the tree had withered in Matthews account. After all isn’t repetition an effective means of teaching?

    Consider this: The tree withered immediately to a certain degree when Jesus pronounced the curse. A more severe degree of withering had occurred by morning which is why the expression ‘up from the roots’ was used and this explains Peters further exclamation of what had already happened.

    The Gospels are written from different perspectives and just because some details are different or missing between the accounts doesn’t mean that the accounts are contradictory or false. We don’t have every bit of information. This creates to some an illusion of ‘problems’ within the Bible.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      The Bull said:
      Your argument is not without some merit and some of your points are valid.

      My reply:
      Thank you. All of the points that I have made in the article is not favourable to conservative Christian belief which you hold. That means you have admitted that some of the beliefs held by conservative Christians are wrong.

      The Bull said:
      One possible explanation for the apparent differences between Mark and Matthew is that both accounts are true and not exclusive of the other. We know that Marks Gospel is really Peters Gospel and this could explain why his activity is specifically captured in this account. What I propose is that Jesus repeated (and added) to Peter what he had earlier said to the disciples when the tree had withered in Matthews account. After all isn’t repetition an effective means of teaching?

      Consider this: The tree withered immediately to a certain degree when Jesus pronounced the curse. A more severe degree of withering had occurred by morning which is why the expression ‘up from the roots’ was used and this explains Peters further exclamation of what had already happened.

      My reply:
      Both accounts cannot be true unless you wish to create a new gospel for the New Testament that was never envisioned by any of the Gospels’ authors. If you mash the different versions of the same event together what you have is The Gospel According to The Bull. That is essentially what the conservative Christian apologist tends to do. Rather than stick with the Bible they introduce new material that was never thought of by the original authors. This is what Dr. L. Michael White calls the car wreck fallacy and Bart Ehrman discusses this fallacious conservative Christian reasoning in many of his books including Misquoting Jesus. The fact of the matter is that you’re clutching at straws as any reasonable and astute reader can see. You can’t accept the fact that the authors of the Gospels invented and modified historical information to suit their own motives and agendas. This is the predicament that believers in Biblical inerrancy suffer from. Notice that The Bull is actually unable to prove any of the points that I have made in the above article and my replies to his comments. Rather what he’s doing you is offering a “possible” alternative way at looking at things. Offering a possible interpretation beside another does not prove one to be better than the other. It certainly does not disprove any possible alternatives. What The Bull has to do is to actually prove that there is no development in the narratives from one Gospel to the next. Anyone who has been following the discussion so far can see that he has utterly failed to do so. I and Rocko have both shown clear developments in the story that have clear and significant theological implications . The Bull has been soundly refuted once more.

    • rocko says:

      “Consider this: The tree withered immediately to a certain degree when Jesus pronounced the curse. A more severe degree of withering had occurred by morning which is why the expression ‘up from the roots’ was used and this explains Peters further exclamation of what had already happened. ”

      “And having remembered, Rabbi look, the fig tree fig tree you cursed is dried up.”

      WHAT THE BLOODY HELL DID PETE REMEMBER?
      THE ONLY THING POSSIBLE for him to REMEMBER IS WHAT TOOK PLACE BEFORE AT THE TIME OF THE CURSE AND THAT IS,

      “And heard ēkouon the disciples…”

      REMEMBERED WHAT he HEARD .

      bull, why didn’t mark have pete say, “COMPLETELY dried up” .pete is USING words as IF FOR THE FIRST TIME , AND TO his SUPRISE, he HAS SEEN what the CURSE DID TO THE TREE.

      ….

      M2

      And dried up exēranthē immediately parachrēma the fig tree

      parachréma

      Short Definition: instantly, immediately
      Definition: instantly, immediately, on the spot.

      Disciples marveled, saying How immediately parachrēma is dried up the fig tree?

      there you go bull, mat had the DISCIPLES USE THE WORD IMMEDIATELY/parachrēma . QUALIFIED the “dried up” , but mark was too LAZY to QUALIFY petes “dried up / exērammenēn ” ?

      WHO READING MARK ALONE WILL CREATE THE BULL S H IT WHICH YOU HAVE DREAMED UP?

      you would think that immediate WITHER /dry up in some sense is SEVERE

      se·vere   /səˈvɪər/ Show Spelled[suh-veer] Show IPA
      adjective, -ver·er, -ver·est.
      1. harsh; unnecessarily extreme: severe criticism; severe laws.
      2. serious or stern in manner or appearance: a severe face.

      man, one could even say that the immediate withering was “unneccessarily extreme” considering that it was a DEFENCELESS tree.

      or “the TREE RECEIVED severe punishment”

  14. rocko says:

    “At first glance it could appear that the miracles happened at a different time. I admit that. However, in Marks account it doesn’t actually state when the tree withered. It had certainly withered well before Peter saw it the next morning.”

    he (your meat god) said to it, “may no one ever eat FRUIT from you again.” and his deciples HEARD IT

    LOOK , the NARRATOR DOES NOT NEED TO TELL YOU THAT THEY SAW THE TREE, BECAUSE THE NARRATOR THINKS THAT IT IS BLOODY COMMONSENSE FOR HIS READERS TO KNOW THAT THE DECIPLES SAW THE TREE. THE NARRATOR IS GIVING YOU A GOOD CLUE THAT WHAT THEY HEARD DID NOT HAVE AN IMMEDIATE AFFECT ON THE TREE. THEY WERE THERE WHEN he CURSED A TREE WHICH KNOWETH NO SIN AND IT WAS BRUISED FOR THE INIQUITIES OF AN imPATIENT . LOOK AND READ. READ AND LOOK. THERE IS AN AWESOME CLUE WHICH IS GIVEN AND YOU ARE DROPPING THE CLUE. LOOK AND READ AND READ AND LOOK . Kekekekekekekekekekeke kekekekekekeekekek
    kekekekekeekekekekek kekekekekekekek kekekekekeekekeke
    poor innocent disabled tree cursed for no GOOD reason.

  15. rocko says:

    bull AVOIDS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION

    WAS bull WORSHIPPING A SHORT SIGHTED AND INCAPACITATED god at the time of the fig tree incident?

  16. rocko says:

    “he (your meat god) said to it, “may no one ever eat FRUIT from you again.” and his deciples HEARD IT

    heard it not react to what was heard coz reaction takes place a day later , so allow mark to tell you what he wants to say. “the fig tree i HEARD you CURSE has WITHERED …”

    simple mathetmatics

  17. rocko says:

    any honest reader can see that mark is only INCLUDING

    THE WORDS

    “And heard ēkouon the disciples…”

    BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING IMPORTANT TO REPORT ABOUT THE SEEING.

    IT DOESN’T MATTER IF THE DECIPLES SAW THE TREE, they according to mark, saw that the curse HAD NO IMMEDIATE AFFECT ON THE TREE, THAT IS THE REASON WHY MARK IS USING “HEARD” . THE “HEARD” IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE “SEEING” IT ” HEARD” WOULD BE REMEMBERED THE FOLLOWING DAY.

  18. rocko says:

    sometimes i wonder why america is full of criminals, theives, rapists , drug dealers, i think the criminal lawyer and criminal judge must be creating speculation to FIX discrepencies in the criminals account of what happen. depending on the blood murder of a god who hid in meat creates these problems. lies can be fixed up.

  19. rocko says:

    we all saw on t.v that Saddam Hussain was killed by STRANGULATION. now imagine 20 years from now, we hear an eyewitness account which sez that he fell from a HIEGHT , banged his HEAD AND died BECAUSE OF SEVERE HEAD injuries.

    now in bull’s case he will try to reconcile

    the ROPE broke and Hussain banged his HEAD unto the floor.

    now imagine there is NO mention of WHERE exactly hussain was in the OFFICIAL account, the christians will use ommision to thier advantage.

  20. rocko says:

    why was it DIFFICULT for mark to say

    “…the fig tree which WITHERED has dried up”
    ?

  21. rocko says:

    “I am an idiot who likes to repeat myself 1000 times. I’m sorry for wasting everyone’s time for nothing.”

    is it me or am i detecting christian pride in this statement? you really giving yourself a goldfish aren’t you?

  22. rocko says:

    “…which is why the expression ‘up from the roots’ was used and this explains Peters further exclamation of what had already happened. ”

    its a blasted exclamation when one asks IN A SUPRISED way , ” HOW DID THE TREE WITHER IMMEDIATELY?” that there is NO SUPRISE/EXCLAMATION/ SHOCK/ WONDER “MAA ajmala hadhi asayaarah” ONLY “HEARD” the CURSE should tell you thAT you are PLAYING /toying/ DESTROYING/FIDDLING/mocking/blaspheming against/wrecking marks version

    don’t you know your BLASPHEMY will send you in the DEPTHS OF HELL AND your soul aswell as your flesh will be DESTROYED ?

    did marks hand get heavy ? was he unable to INCLUDE the cAPITALIZED words?

    “rabbi ! the tree is (present tense) withered EVEN MORE”

  23. The Bull says:

    Hi Rocko

    Not all The Bull posts are The Bull posts.
    1 John 5:12 says: “He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”
    Therefore I’m not too worried about your opinions. How are your sins forgiven? By doing prayers, washing etc. It is a futile mans way of attempting to get to God. You must accept Jesus sacrifice for your sin.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      You assume that you “have the Son” and so eternal life. You neither have the son nor eternal life until you recognise Jesus’ original creedal belief “This is life eternal, that they may know You(the Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent(as a messenger/apostle)”.(John 17:3)
      How does one acquire salvation? I have time and again told you how and here you are asking the SAME question which has been answered dozens of time! Wake up The Bull before it’s too late.

      One great example of how forgiveness takes place WITHOUT the shedding of blood AT AL is the story of Zacchaeus in Luke 19 whereby it was said of him, “salvation has come to this house”. This statement was made after Zaccaheus promised to pay back what he owed to the people that he had slighted and oppressed. The sincerity to make amends led him to salvation. There was NO blood.

    • rocko says:

      “How are your sins forgiven?”

      exercizing a thing called guilt now and again. aknowledging that God sees everything and sees you when you are alone. sees you when you attempt to cheat the old lady down the road by adding water in the milk container to increase the amount of milk.

      ” By doing prayers, washing etc. ”

      why not? if God asked me to sacrifice my life to him wouldn’t that be million times more DIFFICULT? what is wrong with SACRIFICING FEW MINUTES FOR THE ALMIGHTY ? WHAT IS WRONG WITH RAISING YOUR HANDS and saying that you SURRENDER BEFORE THE ALMIGHTY? WHAT IS WRONG WITH BOWING before THE ONE WHO provided you LUNGS TO BREATH? WHat is WRONG WITH ASKING HIM TO GUIDE TO THE STRAIGHT PATH? you symbolize EATING your gods meat and drinking his blood , then why don’t we SYMBOLIZE THAT WASING IS SYMBOLIC FOR A CLEAN HEART BEFORE THE ALMIGHTy?

      “It is a futile mans way of attempting to get to God.”

      if only you knew the meaning behind EACH action and if only you knew the meaning behind the words recited in prayer, you would not be uttering your words.
      you think it is a ritual MEANINGLESS, BUT your christian thinking as allowed you to painT ISLAM with the brush the nt uses to PAINT THE PHARISEES. are you FAIR?

      I QUOTE

      “Prayer and zakaah are nothing but the practical manifestations of this concept, and are the very foundation and purpose of the religious law. Prayer connects man with God ALmighty, and it is the core expression of love, gratitude and humility before God. Zakaah is the connection to humanity, where Allah commands men to spend on society, which not only includes the poor, but inherent in it, is the concept of social justice”

      Allah states things like, “Do good, as God has done to you.”

      ” To worship God as if you see him, and if you see him not, know that He sees you”

      ” You must accept Jesus sacrifice for your sin.”

      jesus’ “sacrifice” required for him to work/action/deeds
      when you christians sin, you don’t replay jesus’ “sacrifice” in your head you look to the ot and try to follow the DEEDS of old prophets who DID DEEDS using thier OWN HANDS TO DO THEM. even your god required to do deeds to appease himself. DEEDS your god REQUIRED . but ALLAH HAS DONE MANY DEEDS FOR US HUMAN BEINGS. He gave us the sun which never disobeys Him and comes out on TIME TO give LIGHT TO THE EARTH, it is an OBEDIENT CREATION. it never said to God , “sorry, i am lazy today, i can’t give light to the earth”
      ALLAHs works are all GOOD. Allahs works benefit us everyday, jesus’ “sacrifice” by giving his life to his cosmic form only BENEFITED him like a self abuser cuts himself to please himself. god in christianity applied his CONTROLED wrath unto himself, theN REWARDED himself for “sacrificing” himself by carrying out his deeds he wrote for himself in the ot and no jew ever thought that god himself would abuse himself to release the humans BEFORE christianity EXISTED

      i don’t need jesus and neither do christians need jesus. all they got to do is look at the mirror and say that the person who can fix things is the ugly guy in the mirror.

      people USED thier GUILT even BEFORE jesus EXISTED.

      People didn’t look back at deeds PERFORMED IN THE past, they asked , “what did i do WRONG”

    • Dr.Mustafa says:

      TO BULL

      BULL SAID 1 John 5:12 says: “He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”

      It means he who obeys Jesus will have eternal life and he who does not obey he will not .

      NOW LET US SEE WHAT JESUS SAID FOR SALVATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

      GOSPEL OF MATTHEW
      1) Chapter 5 verse 1 to 20 Jesus sermon on the mount . In all these verses Jesus says who are good people and verse 20 he says to the people gathered to listen his sermon that unless your righteousness exceeds bad deeds you will not enter kingdom of heaven.
      2) Chapter 5 verses 21 to 48 all deal with how our actions should be and to be good verse 48 says we have to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect.
      3) Chapter 6 verse 12 Jesus shows how to pray and ask for forgiveness of our sins.
      4) Chapter 7 verse 21 Jesus says he who does the will of my father will enter the heaven.
      5) Chapter 12 verse 7 Jesus confirms hosea verse 6 of chapter 6 “I desire mercy not sacrifice”
      6) Chapter 16 verse 24 Jesus tells here that a man should carry his own cross.
      7) Chapter 18 verses 21 to 35 in these verses Jesus tells how heavenly father will forgive us if we forgive our brother.

      GOSPEL OF MARK
      1) Chapter 7 verse 8 he is telling Pharisees and scribes that not to leave commandment of god and not to hold fast to tradition of men.
      2) Chapter 8 verse Jesus tells to carry one’s own cross .
      3) Chapter 10 verses 17 to 20 Jesus tells that to inherit eternal life keep all commandments in verses 14 , 15 and 16 of same chapter he says “…whoever does not receive kingdom of god like a child shall not receive it ..”.here again he says we should be sinless like children to get kingdom of god showing children are sinless as opposed to Christian doctrine of original sin .
      4) Chapter 11 verses 24 and 25 Jesus tells to ask for forgiveness in prayer and to forgive others so as the father may forgive us.

      GOSPEL OF LUKE
      1) Chapter 3 verse 4 Jesus went into the region about the Jordan , preaching a BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
      In john chapter 1 verse 33 Jesus is described as he who baptizes with holy spirit .So Jesus showed repantance as a method of forgiveness of sins and this is how he baptized with holy spirit.
      In john chapter 1 verse 29 Jesus is showed as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world .Jesus showed repantace and this is how he takes away the sin.
      You can see clearly here that JESUS SAID REPENTANCE FOR SINS. Where is the blood and where is the crucifixion here.
      2) Chapter 6 verses 20 to 45 in these verses Jesus tells what we have to do to get reward .in verse 46 to 49 of same chapter he says he who does what Jesus tells is the one building a strong house.
      3) Chapter 11 verse 3 Jesus is telling to pray and ask for forgiveness.
      4) Chapter 13 verses 1 to 5 Jesus gives examples of Galileans and Siloam and says unless you repent you will perish.
      5) Chapter 14 verse 27 Jesus says whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be his disciple.
      6) Chapter 15 verse 7 Jesus says there will be more joy in the heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
      7) Chapter 18 verse 17 Jesus says “…whoever does not receive kingdom of God like a child shall not receive it ..”

      GOSPEL OF JOHN
      1) Chapter 8 verse 1 to 11 Jesus protects a women who has committed adultery and says to the women not to sin again.
      2) Chapter 14 verse 15 “if you love me you will keep my commandments”.

      Christians falsely say that Muslims have no love for God they are only involved in the commandments without love .They do not know that the basis of relation with God in Quran is direct one to one and on basis of love but love is through keeping the God’s commandments not just superficial love. This is explained in this verse by Jesus .

      If a man truely loves his kith and kin and his friends he does it in his actions and not just superficial love by saying I love them and doing nothing in actions.

      3) Chapter 17 verse 3 and 4 Jesus says “ .. and this is eternal life that they know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent.” Here Jesus clearly says eternal life is knowing the only true god and Jesus who is the christ.He did not say this is eternal life that they should believe that iam dying for their sins

      In all these verses where is the blood of Christ where is crucifixion where is redemption on believing Christ died on cross?

      PEOPLE SINNED BEFORE JESUS CHRIST WERE THEY NOT FORGIVEN BY GOD WHEN THEY REPENTED .DID GOD BECAME A SACRIFICIAL LAMB TO FORGIVE THEM IN DAYS BEFORE JESUS THAT HE SHOULD BECAME SACRIFICIAL LAMB LATER ?

      So bull read your own bible first before commenting.We Muslims follow all the above said things by Jesus not your invented idea of sacrifice and sacrificial lamb .

      • The Bull says:

        Dr. Mustafa said: “Chapter 5 verse 1 to 20 Jesus sermon on the mount . In all these verses Jesus says who are good people and verse 20 he says to the people gathered to listen his sermon that unless your righteousness exceeds bad deeds you will not enter kingdom of heaven.”

        My reply: That statement is erroneous because it is not what the verse actually says. It is your take on it. In fact this ‘good deeds must outweigh bad deeds’ concept is the common denominator in all religions except one. The problem with such a statement is how does one know how many good deeds one has to do to be saved? In contrast to this Jesus said “come to me all you who labour are are heavy laden (with sins) and I shall give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). Christianity gives people a rest from striving to reach a perfection that is impossible to attain by ones own merit. It is Gods way of salvation. The alternative is struggle, dissatisfaction and ultimately ruin. It is by grace we are saved through faith in Christ NOT our works. It is a Gift that only the Christian will accept (Ephesians 2:8:9).

        You quote the Gospels where you think it suits your cause, but will you heed the Gospels in their entirety? Also your assessment of John 1:29 is uncontextual. You are putting your slant on that verse but ignoring the context. Jesus takes away the sin of the world by replacing the sacrificial lamb/system of the Old Testament once and for all (Hebrews chs 8 & 9). When did the Jewish Priesthood/sacrifice for sins system end? Answer: Not long after Jesus died because God has done away with the old system! History has spoken.

        Matthew 26:28: “For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins”.

        Mark14:24: “….This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many..”

        See also Luke22:20

        The term ‘Son of God’ is used over 40 times in the N.T.
        John 20:31 says: “but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.”
        So if you don’t believe he is the Son of God, you do not have life.

        If you truly believe then you will delight to obey the commandments of God, however, obeying them does not ‘save’ you. It is rather an indication that you are saved…the fruit.

        Galatians 2:16: “..for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

      • Dr.Mustafa says:

        TO BULL

        Matthew 5:20″for i tell you unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees ,you will never enter kingdom of heaven”

        The word for righteousness used here is ‘dikaiosune’ .It means being proper or right in the sense of being fully justified being or in accordance with what God requires is the quality of being upright. In its simplest sense ‘dikaiosune’ conveys the idea of conformity to a standard or norm. In this sense righteousness is the opposite of hamartia (sin), which is defined as missing of the mark set by God. In this sense righteousness is the opposite of hamartia (sin), which is defined as missing of the mark set by God

        This is what Charles Haddon Spurgeon a famous preacher of 19 century said about this verse “The scribes and Pharisees were supposed to be righteous beyond all others. ‘Nay,’ saith Christ; ‘you must go beyond them.’ They were, after all, superficial, flimsy, pretentious, unreal in their righteousness; and we must have a far nobler character than they ever attained, or we “shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

        So basically what Christ says is we have to be good not just pretend to be good just like scribes and pharisees .So if one is having more bad deeds than good deeds can we be called righteous?.No not at all

        You said “The problem with such a statement is how does one know how many good deeds one has to do to be saved?”

        It is not a fixed criteria that we have to do this many good deeds and once we reached it no need to do good any more .God requires us to abhor evil and prefer goodness over evil till we live, he never said only this many good deeds are required.

        Coming to your perfectness in deeds i too agree that no body can be perfect Quran says 35:45 “If God were to punish men according to what they deserve. He would not leave on earth a single living creature”.But should we stop doing good knowing that nobody can be perfect? and moreover being perfect is not same as our good deeds surpassing bad deeds

        You quoted Matthew 11:28 “come to me all you who labour are are heavy laden (with sins) and I shall give you rest” .You did not the give the context and it does not mean what you are showing.The context starts i verse 20 where Jesus says ” Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes”.

        Here Jesus is asking to repent for the sins and is denouncing the towns where he showed his miracles and still after that people in them are not repenting and he is also saying that had he performed his miracles in tyre and sidon they would have repented.Then he says in verse 28″Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest”. In verse 29 he says ” Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls”. Jesus is asking the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida to come to him,learn from him that repenting is the way to get relived from the burden of sin that they used to do.

        You quoted John 20:31 “but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.”

        We belief Jesus is the Christ and coming to son of god the bible uses it for many and basically uses for selected persons of god.We too believe Christ is son of god in the sense that he is the selected of god not a literal son of god which even the bible does not use it in that sense

      • Dr.Mustafa says:

        JOHN 1:29 “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”

        Lamb of God . The reference is probably to the Paschal lamb, though commentators differ.

        Some say of God

        Some Provided by God for sacrifice.

        If Jesus is lamb of God .Then what sin did God commit and to whom he is offering Jesus as a sacrifice ?

        If it means provided by God for sacrifice .Then it would mean God going against his own command as God clearly said he does not want human sacrifice in Deuteronomy 12:31 and Deuteronomy 18:10 .

        Still if we consider that Jesus is the lamb provided by God for sacrifice he cannot take the sin of world as the verse says because in Judaical law the sinner should offer the sacrifice and the world did not offer Jesus as a sacrifice.Still more Jesus himself said he was sent for the lost sheep of Israel and how can a person sent only for a particular people take away the sin of the world?

        Moreover he did not fill any of the requirement of the sin sacrifice which are
        1. The sin offering must be brought forth by the person seeking atonement, and slaughtered either by the sinner or by the priest.
        2. Death must be caused by a sharp, perfect blade cutting across the neck, resulting in blood loss and swift death.
        3. The offering must be physically unblemished.
        4. In the case of mammal offerings (bulls, lambs, etc.) the offering must be less than one year old.
        5. In the case of mammal offerings, the mammal must have cloven hooves and chew cud.
        6. The sacrifice must be brought at the Temple
        7. The sacrifice must have its blood taken by a priest and sprinkled on the altar.
        8. The sacrifice must be salted.

        If you read John in context the actual meaning of what this verse is trying to say will be clear .The context starts from verse 25

        25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

        26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

        27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

        28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

        29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

        30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

        31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

        32 And John abare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

        33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Spirit.

        Now see people ask John why are you baptizing since you are not Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet .People know that only these can baptize.Then John says after him will come a person who is much bigger and will baptize with holy spirit and will cleanse sin by doing that and then when he sees Jesus he says lamb of God who takes away the sin .Jesus takes away the sin by baptizing with holy spirit .Gospel of Luke says in Chapter 3 verse 4 Jesus went into the region about the Jordan , preaching a baptism of repentance for forgiveness of sin.So it is that Jesus takes away the sin by asking people to repent .

        SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT FOR CHRISTIANS

        Luke 5:17-26 records that four men brought their paralysed friend to Jesus to be healed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralysed man “Man, your sins are forgiven ”

        Here Jesus forgives sin did he take a sacrifice from the man to forgive his sin .So forgiveness of sin does not require sacrifice .

        IF JESUS HIMSELF FORGIVES SIN WITHOUT SACRIFICE THEN WHY WOULD GOD WANT SACRIFICE TO FORGIVE SIN

  24. rocko says:

    “You must accept Jesus sacrifice for your sin.”

    BUT why jesus’ MURDER one needs for cleansing of sin? a man needs a torch to see in the dark so you must accept the torch coz it is neccessary, but why need jesus’ murder? it has absolutely know affect on your soul or spirit or mind, what does have affect on your mind is that GOD is watching EVERY single one of your moves.
    deeds /actions which we OBSERVE are meant to change the person within us.
    but how does SELF ABUSE help us? “forgive me god for killing yourself and then rewarding yourself later on by placing yourself at the right hand of the 1st person in trinity” what is this nonsense? when you eat an apple do you ever ponder on who made it? you say THE all powerful God made it. do you say that god who killed himself made it? no you qualifiy God with the word “powerful” do you see that you and your god are hooked on murder of your god? you and your god CAN’T SEE PAST THE murder of your god and both of your REQUIRE THAT as an INTERMEDIARY .

  25. rocko says:

    “PEOPLE SINNED BEFORE JESUS CHRIST WERE THEY NOT FORGIVEN BY GOD WHEN THEY REPENTED .DID GOD BECAME A SACRIFICIAL LAMB TO FORGIVE THEM IN DAYS BEFORE JESUS THAT HE SHOULD BECAME SACRIFICIAL LAMB LATER ?!”

    the christians have no shame brother. one of them by the name of madmanna was aked if solomon was symbolically burning god to god. you see they see god in animal sacrifices and assume that animal sacrifices symbolized murder of thier god. is it in anyway possible that solomon burnt animals because in his mind he thought he was burning god to god? what difference is it then between solomon and idol worshippers?

  26. The Bull says:

    Dr. Mustafa

    You are correct to say that no one is perfect. Romans 3:23 says: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” How wrong are we then, to try and pay the debt of sin, when he has already done so by so great a sacrifice (Hebrews 2:3).

    I cannot stress enough the importance of reading Hebrews chapters 8-10 in understanding the position Christ now has as the testator of a better covenant.
    Hebrews 8:7 “For if the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”
    Hebrews 10:1 “For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come…., can never with those sacrifices…year by year… make those who come unto it perfect.”

    So Christ doesn’t have to copy or conform to the law of the Israelites, those laws and types were by design based on him in the first place! They are copying him.

    The sacrifices of the old covenant had to be repeated each year and were therefore insufficient to make an end of all transgression. In a sense the sacrifices were temporary and a sign (shadow) of what was to come. If a person repented (in the Old Covenant) then it was always under an imperfect system and ultimately covered by Gods grace under Christ.

    1 Peter 1:19,20: “but the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb without blemish or spot, who was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
    Revelation 13:8: “…Lamb slain from the foundation of the world..”

    Dr. Mustafa said: “We belief Jesus is the Christ and coming to son of god the bible uses it for many and basically uses for selected persons of god.We too believe Christ is son of god in the sense that he is the selected of god not a literal son of god which even the bible does not use it in that sense.”

    John 3:16: “….he gave his only begotten son.”
    Matthew 11,27: “….and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son…”
    Hebrews 1:8: “But unto the Son he saith “thy throne, O God….”
    I don’t think that Son of God is used for ‘many’ in this context.

    1 Corinthians 5:7: “…For even Christ is our Passover sacrificed for us.”
    1 Peter 2:24: “who himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree..”

  27. DAWAH REFUTED says:

    regarding this fig tree dilemma for muslim, few things should be noticed:

    1.Everyone should notice, some of Jesus’ acts & teachings were hard to be understood when being delivered to His disciples such as commandment to pluck one’s eyes out if it leads to sin or commandment to eat Jesus’s flesh

    2.Gospel is completing each other , so in seeing the verse should be examined through other verse in Gospel too, if not then basically you’re just chery picking

    3.There’s no God Commandment EVEN IN ISLAM about a tree/plant is deserve to be judged as man being judged. Using a tree as example by making it died is no different with making a tree died for chair, boat or even paper. If immature islamist keep on insisting this childish argument the blame should be on Allah also! since Allah will make all those “innocent “trees destroyed on judgment day.

    4.There’s no indication in Islam to accuse Jesus (Prince of Peace )as having a mistake, such a accusation is blasphemous in Islamic side, so those Islamist who accuse Jesus Al Masih of wrong doings are surely doube
    ============================================
    I’ll straightened out a misunderstanding by Islamist here that seemingly they wrongly assumed we general christians define the event of Fig tree as parable in sense this event wasn’t real when in fact we do consider this event did happen! The truth is we consider this event as THE EMPHASIZING POINT of THE PARABLE OF FIG TREE in Luke 13:6-9, where it tells about How God evaluates His people through seeking if He can find any fruit of righteousness in their life. Mark 11 emphasize that by tells us God’s evaluation is more critical than just looking for fruit, God actually looking for the sign of fruitfulness even before the fruit occurs. Explanation of “knobs” as prerequisite of fruitfulness has been explained before so certainly to explain it more about the “knobs” is not necessary.

    In cursing the Fig tree Jesus is showing how God demands more righteousness than what people suppose. The term “it wasn’t the time of fig tree” is right on the spot, as brother Bull said BEFORE THE FIG TREE SEASON THERE WILL APPEAR TASQH / KNOBS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO BE EATEN.

    God demands to see at least a tasqh in one’s life that shows that person fruitfulness

    Btw if possible how can I contact Dr Mustafa to continue our debate in MDI(Muslim Debate Initiative) since I’ve been banned from that site ?

    thx Regular John (Dawah Refuted)

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      None of the above nonsense refutes anything that has been detailed in the article. What a complete waste of space and time.

    • rocko says:

      your stupid cockroach jewish god jebus krist is a fking hooligan who KILLED a living tree becoz he wanted to get REVENGE for his HUNGER. he was no different from a hooligan kid who DESTROYS a fridge for not having any food in it. any scientist will tell ignorant dumb as s like you that a TREE IS a living BREATHING organism WHICH FEELS pain . the point is your crucfied idiotic DUMB a ss god was IGNORANT of these scientific FACTS . trees CRY when they are HIT. AN enviromentalist would consider jebus’ ATTACK on the tree as bloody hooliganism and UNFAIR . jebus attacked the TREE for NO GOOD reason, but your BASTARD interpretation totally twists the text.

      • The Bull says:

        Jesus is a prophet in your religion. You have severely insulted a prophet of God. What you are doing is a grave sin even in Islam. Isn’t our God supposed to be your God according to Islam? Repent of your blasphemy.

      • rocko says:

        islam teaches us not to dialogue the way i did and it says not blaspheme against any of the prophets because God says to respect them all. you see bull, i’m a person who is going into attack mode because muhammad pbuh is constantly attacked. i haven’t chopped anyones ear off yet like one of the deciples did. bull what i said is nothing in comparison to what issaid about our prophet pbuh and i admit i was wrong to swear at the meat god coz islam says not to initiate the attack.

  28. rocko says:

    “3.There’s no God Commandment EVEN IN ISLAM about a tree/plant is deserve to be judged as man being judged. Using a tree as example by making it died is no different with making a tree died for chair, boat or even paper. If immature islamist keep on insisting this childish argument the blame should be on Allah also! since Allah will make all those “innocent “trees destroyed on judgment day.”

    actually in battle islam clearly says not to harm or cut down trees. Allah owns everything . Allah can take human life and destroy it how and whenever he wishes, but when ignorant incapaciated god you worship misuses his tricks and striked an innocent tree becoz there was nothing in his stomach then that even according to the torah is ILLEGAL. yhwh told the jews, before they hijack a land, not to harm the trees lol. a tree is ALIVE your stupid du mb a… a boat and paper and chair are all DEAD items DEAD ITEMS.

  29. Ibn Anwar says:

    The Bull said
    March 22, 2012 at 9:15 pm e

    Jesus is a prophet in your religion. You have severely insulted a prophet of God. What you are doing is a grave sin even in Islam. Isn’t our God supposed to be your God according to Islam? Repent of your blasphemy.

    My reply:
    Don’t you read your own Bible? The New Testament teaches that saying things against Jesus is not so bad:
    “And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him…(Luke 12:10). It’s not a grave sin to speak against Jesus according to this verse. Why don’t Christians read their own book?

  30. The Bull says:

    Rocko. Thanks for your honesty. You appear to be confused: “i admit i was wrong to swear at the meat god”. Need I say anymore.
    You are probably angry because a lot about what is said about Muhammad is true, thus undermining Islam and your whole life. Unfortunately people do not show compassion or sensitivity when pointing these truths out. You can call Jesus this and that and the other but I just feel sorry for you. It doesn’t get me angry because there is no truth in it. Jesus is mustard, rock solid. Muhammad is not.

    Ibn Anwar, I shouldn’t even have to answer your post.

    • rocko says:

      so christians big up crucified failures reputation and make sales of his fabricated biography in european teriritory. trashing the aramaic and hebrew words and REDUPLICATING the greek opinions so that no one could cross examing what jebus really said. christians use and abuse the torah and try to understand jesus’ murder “according to scriptures” the jews reject jesus before they killed him (nt) and after they killed him (nt)
      no one TILL this day can even PIN a saying on jebus

      1. how do we know that the words were truly jesus’?
      2. how do we know that the words were not INVENTED BY 1st century christians?

      becoz the christians failure (not saviour) has been reinvented by christian opinions some are going far in saying that the man was a myth

      think about failure worshipper , if the jews , before they destroyed your gods meat , were able to CONVINCE ppl to TURN against jesus , and NOT FEW ppl BUT crowds , then not one of jesub’s synagouge talks or miracles came to his rescue/vetoe.

      this means that this was a LAND where ppl would NOT CHECK the facts and EASILY be convinced with any bs.

      meaning the crowds in israel used your god and then turned against him becoz the jews made a case against him

      if it was good for the jews MAKING up stories then why wasn’t it good for christians making up stories? christians have made up stories even paul s brethren are LEAVING him for ANOTHER interpretation of christianity lol

      now what WOULD that other interpretation and other jesus be, bull?

      don’t say the issue was circumcision, how does circumcicsion compare with “yhwh was destroyed by his ppl” sing this in the holy of holies

      so what other jesus were they accepting ? and why did they DROP pauls jebus , bull?

    • Jesus says:

      Bull said ” Jesus is mustard, rock solid. Muhammad is not.”

      Let us see

      Mohammed Jesus

      Successful in ++++ Failed in his mission
      establishing monotheism

      Brought a book which ++++ Did not brought a paper
      is perfectly preserved

      Successful military ++++ Pissed in pants on seeing few
      commander Jews

      Lead his people to ++++ He himself was hanged leave
      victory about his people

      Influenced his ++++ Nobody influenced despite
      people despite no performing innumerable
      miracles miracles

      Organised a group of ++++ Did not organised people who
      people who were already received messengers
      most backward

      Brought new law and ++++ Failed miserably
      was completely successful
      in establishing it

      Married and had ++++ Did not marry so not an
      successful married life example in this aspect

      Had daughter and grand ++++ Not an example
      children and was
      successful in
      this aspect

      Forgave people who ++++ Passage of forgiveness to the
      tortured him despite women who committed
      gaining an upper hand adultery and passage of
      over them asking of forgiveness on
      cross are a forgery in short
      forgave none

      SUMMARY

      Successful man,prophet, ++++++ Failed,failed,failed,failed !!!!!
      husband,father,grandfather,
      organizer,preacher,warrior,
      military commander,bringer of
      law,implementer of law,brought
      book , preserved it

      Is this your rock solid thing Bull ?

      Matthew 7:16 “you hall know them by their fruits” . Mohammeds fruits stand obvious.

      What are the fruits of Jesus ?.

      2 billion Christians are not his fruits they are the fruits of relentless missionary activity with billions of dollars .

      Late Ahmed Deedat said “Christiandom hate Mohammed because he stood for what he thought was right instead of getting crucified like their messiah”

      Very right indeed!

  31. Jesus says:

    Bull said ” Jesus is mustard, rock solid. Muhammad is not.”

    Let us see

    Mohammed was successful in his mission of establishing monotheism Jesus Failed in his mission.

    Mohammed Brought a book which is perfectly preserved. Jesus did not brought a paper.

    Mohammed was a successful military commander.Jesus Pissed in pants on seeing few Jews.

    Mohammed lead his people to victory.Jesus himself was hanged leave about his people.

    Mohammed influenced his people despite no miracles .Jesus influenced nobody despite performing innumerable miracles.

    Mohammed organised a group of people who were most backward .Jesus Did not organised people that to those who already received messengers.

    Mohammed brought new law and was completely successful
    in establishing it.Jesus failed miserably.

    Mohammed married and had successful married life and is an example in this aspect .Jesus did not marry so not an example in this aspect

    Mohammed had a daughter and grand children and was successful in this aspect
    Jesus is not an example in this aspect.

    Mohammed forgave people who tortured him despite gaining an upper hand over them . Passage of forgiveness to the women who committed adultery and passage of asking of forgiveness on cross are a forgery in short Jesus forgave none.

    SUMMARY

    Mohammed was a successful man,prophet,husband,father,grandfather,organizer,preacher,warrior,military commander,bringer of law,implementer of law,brought a book , preserved it, established monotheism which is unparalleled in history.

    Jesus Failed,failed,failed,failed !!!!!

    Is this your rock solid thing Bull ?

    Matthew 7:16 “you hall know them by their fruits” . Mohammeds fruits stand obvious.

    What are the fruits of Jesus ?.

    2 billion Christians are not his fruits they are the fruits of relentless missionary activity with a cost of billions of dollars .

    Late Ahmed Deedat said “Christiandom hate Mohammed because he stood for what he thought was right instead of getting crucified like their messiah”

    Very right indeed!

    • The Bull says:

      Jesus said “what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world yet loses his soul”. (mark 8:36). Jesus mission was to seek and save that which was lost (i.e. you and me – Matthew 18:11). Muhammad denies Christ was crucified and rose again which is the predominant theme of the New Testament and the only thing that enables us to be saved. Jesus did not fail in his mission:

      “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” (John 10:16-18)

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        No, the alleged crucifixion of Jesus was not what you believe it to be:
        http://unveiling-christianity......ucifixion/
        http://unveiling-christianity......eally-die/

        Jesus did not fail his mission with regards to soteriology:
        http://unveiling-christianity......-no-blood/

      • The Bull says:

        Why are you defending the ‘apparent death’ theory when the Koran teaches that Jesus was not crucified in the first place?!
        Sura 4:157-158 reads: “…..but they killed him not, nor CRUCIFIED him, but so it was made to appear to them.” (emphasis added)

        • Ibn Anwar says:

          The Qur’an does not actually say that Jesus was not put on the cross at all. What the Qur’an is saying is that Jesus was not specifically killed by crucifixion which is why it says, “neither killed nor crucified”. For example, in the Qur’an it says, “Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,” Almost all exegetes of the qur’an agree that the crucifixion is capital punishment and is meant to kill the rebel. Hence, in that verse the Qur’an is saying that the rebel can be killed in any general manner or in the specific method of crucifixion. Likewise, in 4:157 the Qur’an isn’t specifically and unequivocally denying that Jesus was put on the cross. Rather, it is saying that Jesus was not killed specifically by crucifixion. I recommend that you watch the debate the Shabir Ally had with Mike Licona where the former explores this in more detail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEPMYqg0EeM

      • Jesus says:

        Hi bull

        My points which i showed you in my previous post is not to downgrade Jesus(p.b.uh)

        I dare not do such a thing . Jesus(p.b.uh) was the great man and prophet of God who walked earth.I like him so much that i kept my label as ‘Jesus’

        I was just showing you that in terms of achievement Mohammed(p.b.u.h) was far ahead of Jesus and his fruits are sufficient proof for Christiandom to recognize him as a prophet as Jesus himself said in Matthew 7:16 “you shall know them by their fruits”

        More over comparing Jesus with Mohammed is like comparing apples with oranges as both came to different set of people with different scenarios and circumstances .It is you people who compare them and downgrade Mohammed (p.b.u.h) despite he leads Jesus(p.b.u.h) in every aspect.

        The only reason why Christiandom do not recognize him as a prophet and the only reason why they heap trash over him is that he did not say Jesus was God but said Jesus was a prophet.

        Had Mohammed(p.b.u.h) would have said Jesus was God then the same Mohammed (p.b.u.h)would have been a true prophet and saint in Christianity.

        Coming to crucifixion whether Jesus was crucified or not what difference will it make ?. Do you think God will throw all who do not believe in crucifixion into
        hell ?

        On the day of judgement if God tells me ” i will throw you into hell because you do not believe in crucifixion” , i will say God how will i know what happened to a man who lived 2000yr before me ? , and if you still want to throw me into hell i will go into it but before it ask any man living 2000yr before me to tell how i died. Nobody can, not even Jesus . He did no who touched him (Mark 25:30) how will he know how i die !!!! .God will be packed on hearing me !! .But you know God is much more than what we think of him and will not do such silly things.

        Come over your pre fixed notions bull .

        Read Quran bro and read what prophets said in the old testament and what Jesus said in the Gospels ,you will then come to know that they all said the same thing Worship God creator, cherisher and sustainer of the universe.

        It is God who fashioned you, me, Jesus Christ (p.b.u.h) and all human beings when we were in our mothers wombs will you then turn away from your creator ?
        and worship him who himself is created and is dependent on God ?

        Had Mohammed(p.b.u.h)

  32. rocko says:

    “Jesus said “what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world yet loses his soul”. (mark 8:36). Jesus mission was to seek and save that which was lost (i.e. you and me – Matthew 18:11). ”

    you are lost and your crucified failure LOST! jebus thought he could TURN the sanhedrin and the well versed in the torah in to DIRTY stinking idolaterors.

    1. the torah never SAID that god will DESTROY /murder/ self abuse/ torcher / destroyed by the hands of pagans to satisfy his wrath.

    2. greeks THOUGHT being DEFEATED was greater than DEFEAT

    3. nt is a greek doc

    5. jesus tried to gain the whole world via his speeches ” i have spoken OPENLY…” LOL his public miracles which ATTRACTED crowds. jebus tried to GAIN FAME and according to matthew his fame SPREAD ALL THROUGH OUT syria LOL

    his deciples WERE SHOCKED when he was drilled to a cross

    they searched through the ot and tried to big up is failure by thinking it was “propheciesed”

    when jebus was MAKING gains lol there was none of this ” what does it profit a man if he gains…” talk going on

    when his deciples saw that his flesh failed , they try to communicate with his fleshless form lol and like GEROGE bush , who said that “god told him to BOMB iraq”
    they (deciples) thought jebus’ dead flesh and blood saved.

  33. The Bull says:

    The position of Jesus being crucified but not killed is not believed by the majority of Muslims. What you are proposing is a big gamble. Firstly most scholars agree Jesus actually died on the cross (which makes sense because the Romans were expert in that art and punished severely for making mistakes). Then you have the secondary problem that most Muslims do not believe Jesus was even put on the cross! You have a situation in which you believe in the minority of a minority position! It is very confusing. I do feel sorry for you trying to make sense of an impossible situation. You really are in a difficult situation and it is quite commendable in some ways the lengths you will go to to defend your position.

    Another thing is you are trying to use a document (N.T.) which does not support your case TO support your case which is why you will not post all my posts. One does not have to be that clever or intellectual to refute Islam. All one has to do is repeat what the bible says!, then you have to rush around like a headless chook to make your position work. Intellectually you are attempting to make 1 + 1 = 3. It would be impressive to watch if it wasn’t so sad.

    I quote the following from the below link.
    http://www.sunnah.org/msaec/ar.....fixion.htm

    This would violate the Qur’anic principle of mughayara or semantic differentiation. If the Qur’an states “A and B” then A is necessarily different from B according to mughayara. It is a good idea to approach Qur’anic interpretation through the sciences and rules that were developed to help us achieve it.

    A second proof against the above misinterpretation is that the whole point of the denial is that Allah did not let his Prophet be subjected to infamy. The latter does not reside in being killed — as other Prophets were killed — but in the modality of being displayed on a pole like a criminal. Lapidation (stoning) is ruled out for the same reason.

    A third proof is that, to my knowledge, the imams of commentary have not mentioned the hypothesis that `Isa himself was placed on the cross as a possibility. So it is a fabrication disguised as a statistical remark that “Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross.” The real stat would be that some seem to think that he was actually placed on the cross.

    A fourth proof is that in Arabic usage salb or crucifixion does not denote death on a cross — contrary to what is being claimed above — but only hoisting or being hoisted up on a cross or plank or pole for the purpose of defamation and humiliation.

    “Jesus” said:

    “Coming to crucifixion whether Jesus was crucified or not what difference will it make ?. Do you think God will throw all who do not believe in crucifixion into
    hell ?”

    YES, that is what bible says.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      The Bull, the position of the majority of Muslims is that Jesus did not die the shameful death of a crucified man. That is in essence the position of the majority of Muslims. You said, “Another thing is you are trying to use a document (N.T.) which does not support your case TO support your case which is why you will not post all my posts”. No any sane and thinking man knows that I have many times explained to you how I can and do use the Bible to refute your false beliefs. The reason why some of your comments have been deleted is not because I have been unable to respond to them, but rather it is because you repeat the exact same claims that have been refuted time and time again. I warned you more than 3 times in the past which you probably have forgotten due to your short term memory(which explains why you repeat the same thing again and again after having been refuted) that you may repeat at your own peril. Now, let us address the link that you have provided and refute you once again.

      The person answering the questions on the article of the provided link is Sheikh GF Haddad with whom I have great respect. However, it is noteworthy that Dr. Shabir Ally whom I mentioned in my previous response is the person who has the credentials in Qur’anic exegesis and not Dr. GF Haddad whose knowledge is well recognised, yet his PhD is specifically in the French language. I bet you have not even watched the debate that I suggested to you which basically shows that my position is well founded in the Islamic tradition as well as the Qur’an itself. Gf Haddad’s mentioning of the violation of ‘mughayara’ is actually inaccurate as I have already shown in my previous article. It is claimed that if the Qur’an states “A and B” then A is necessarily different from B. The following Qur’anic verse shows that this understanding is not exactly precise:
      “Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,”(5:33)

      Notice the part where it says, “killed or crucified”. Crucified there does not mean that a person is crucified alive then brought back down alive again. Rather, it means to kill a person by the specific method of crucifixion. Sheikh al-Maraghy explains in his ‘Tafsir al-Maraghy’ regarding the verb in question ‘yusallabu’ which I will translate from the Arabic for you:
      “To crucify intensely and continuously. As Imam al-Shafi’i said, “After being killed, crucify for three days by tying the victim on a piece of wood or similar to it in an upright fashion with both hands outstretched. Beating should accompany the punishment on the crucified victim so as to hasten death.” (Ahmad Mustafa al-Maraghy, Tafsir al-Maraghy, p. 1555)
      Thus, the words ‘killed’ and ‘crucified’ are related to one another as both essentially mean ‘to put a person to death’.

      Let us read 4:157 carefully and see what exactly is the point that is being made:
      “and their boast, “Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, [who claimed to be] an apostle of God!” However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so;171 and, verily, those who hold conflicting views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere conjecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him”

      The claim that is made by those in boast is that “qatalna” meaning ‘we have killed’ the Messiah, Jesus. Nobody denies that the whole point of what follows the boastful claim is a negation of it. So what exactly is being negated? The point that Allah is making here is that they were not successful in killing the Messiah, Jesus! Their claim was not that they crucified the messiah. The claim is that they have killed the Messiah. Thus, the negation “ma qataluhu wa ma salabuhu’ is negating that claim. The Qur’an is emphasizing that crucifixion which means killing of Jesus did not take place. Mawlana Abdul Majid Daryabadi though agreeing with the substitution theory in his commentary on the verse says that, “Crucifixion is the act of putting to death by nailing to a cross.” (Abdul Majid Daryabadi (n.d.). Tafsirul Qur’an: Translation and Commentary of the Holy Qur’an. Lucknow, India: Academy of Islamic Research and Publications, Nadwatul Ulama. p. 386) It is safe then to conclude that the crucifixion meant in this verse like in 5:33 is the act of killing. Let us say for the sake of argument that I were to agree with GF Haddad for a moment and say that “qataluhu” should be different from “salabuhu”. Would that weaken my position? No, it would not because it is also acceptable to understand the verse as saying that Jesus was not killed(in any general way) nor was he killed by the specific method of crucifixion. There is no disagreement among the scholars of tafsir that “salabuhu” there means to put to death. The Qur’an then is not specifically denying that Jesus was placed on the cross. The “traditional” position that says that someone else was made to look like Jesus and he was crucified instead of him is untenable for many reasons. One of the greatest scholars of our tradition is Imam Fakhruddin al-Razi. In his ‘Tafsir al-Kabir’ he concludes that all the narrations about the substitution theory are conflicting and contradictory that they should all be rejected and that we simply say that Allah knows best(as to what truly happened). (Fakhruddin al-Razi (1981). Tafsir al-Kabir wa Mafatih al-Ghayb, Vol. 11. Beirut, Lebanon: Darul Fikr. pp. 101-102) It should be noted that none of the narrations go back to the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. and that they are known as “Isra’iliyyat” reports which are usually not taken for granted. Muhammad Asad in his commentary on the verse writes:
      “Thus, the Qur’an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exist, among Muslims, many fanciful legends telling us that at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts, that person was Judas), who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur’an or in authentic Traditions, and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected. They represent no more than confused attempts at “harmonizing” the Qur’anic statement that Jesus was not crucified with the graphic description, in the Gospels, of his crucifixion. The story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the Qur’anic phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, which I render as “but it only appeared to them as if it had been so” – implying that in the course of time, long after the time of Jesus, a legend had somehow grown up (possibly under the then-powerful influence of Mithraistic beliefs) to the effect that he had died on the cross in order to atone for the “original sin” with which mankind is allegedly burdened; and this legend became so firmly established among the latter-day followers of Jesus that even his enemies, the Jews, began to believe it – albeit in a derogatory sense (for crucifixion was, in those times, a heinous form of death-penalty reserved for the lowest of criminals). This, to my mind, is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, the more so as the expression shubbiha li is idiomatically synonymous with khuyyila 1i, “[a thing] became a
      fancied image to me”, i.e., “in my mind” – in other words, “[it] seemed to me” (see Qamus, art. khayala, as well as Lane II, 833, and IV, 1500).” Notice that Muhammad Asad contends that as time went by the legend developed that Jesus “had died on the cross”. The Qur’an denies that Jesus was overtaken by death by any means including by crucifixion. The Qur’an nowhere specifically denies that Jesus was put on the cross. There is no authentic hadith that comes from the Prophet s.a.w. or non-Israiliyyat that says that Jesus was never placed on the cross.
      You have thus been refuted. Please do not repeat the same nonsense again lest you get censured.

    • Jesus says:

      Bull said if we do not believe in crucifixion God will throw us into hell .He also said the Bible says that.

      Bull , the old testament never says that .

      Prophets right from the beginning said to believe in one God and to do good to attain eternal life none of them believed in death and resurrection of Christ and none said to believe in it .

      So according to bull all the prophets and Jews will go to hell !!!

      Let us see what Jesus said to attain eternal life

      (Luke 10:25-28)
      On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
      “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
      He answered: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'”
      “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live”

      (Luke 18:18-22)
      A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
      And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
      “You know the commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother.'”
      And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.”
      When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me”

      (Matthew 25:34-46).
      “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
      “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
      “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'”
      [To those who showed no compassion] “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
      “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
      “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
      “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life”

      Love for enemies
      But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven (Matthew 5:44-45).

      Peacemaking
      Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God (Matthew 5:9).

      Obedience
      Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matthew 7:21).

      “If a man keeps my word, he will never see death” (John 8:51).

      Righteousness
      Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God (Matthew 5:8).

      For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:20).

      If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell (Matthew 5:29-30, also Matthew 18:8-9 and Mark 9:43-48).

      The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear (Matthew 13:41-43).

      Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:47-50).

      Those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned (John 5:29).

      Child likeness
      And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3, also Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17).

      I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it (Luke 18:17).

      Self-denial
      Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done” (Matthew 16:14-27, also Mark 8:34-35).

      . . . any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple (Luke 134:33)

      The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me (John 12:25-26).

      Servant hood
      To the servant who had wisely used his talent] “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!'” (Matthew 25:21).

      [To the servant who buried his talent] “‘And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth'” (Matthew 25:30).

      Speaking truth
      Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven (Matthew 10:32-33, also Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26, Luke 12:8).

      But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned (Matthew 12:36-37).

      Forgiveness
      And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins (Mark 11:25).

      “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven” (Luke 6:37).

      Fruitfulness
      Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit (Matthew 21:43).

      “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
      “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.
      John answered, “The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.”
      Tax collectors also came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”
      “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
      He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely?be content with your pay” (Luke 3:8-14).

      “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
      “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned” (John 15:1-6).

      Perseverance
      All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved (Matthew 10:22).
      By standing firm you will save yourself (Luke 21:19).

      Putting faith into practice
      “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash” (Matthew 7:24-27).

      Faith
      “Jesus said to the woman [who had washed His feet], “Your faith has saved you; go in peace” (Luke 7:50).
      Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God (John 1:12).
      Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life (John 3:14-15).
      For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son (John 3:16-18).
      Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him (John 3:36).
      I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24).
      For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40).
      I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life (John 6:47).
      I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins (John 8:24).
      I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die (John 11:25-26).

      NEVER DID JESUS TOLD TO BELIEVE IN HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE .BULL PLEASE READ BIBLE.

      AND PLEASE DON’T QUOTE VERSES WHAT PAUL SAID .

      • The Bull says:

        Hi “Jesus” (and Ibn Anwar (honours degree…v.cool; working on your pHD yet?))

        Sorry for the long delay in my response. Unfortunatley bloging on this site doesn’t pay the bills, unless an arrangement can be made:).

        “Jesus” said: “NEVER DID JESUS TOLD TO BELIEVE IN HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE .BULL PLEASE READ BIBLE.”

        My reply:

        Matthew 26:28 says: “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

        This statement clearly implies that the crucifixion is necessary for the removal of sins and therefore salvation. Without the removal of sins we are guilty and therefore ‘lost’.

        Jesus also stated that he must be crucified:

        Matthew 26:2 :”Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified. ”

        Jesus died on passover to fulfil Gods requirement for sacrifice once and for all. Please accept this amazing gift of grace.

      • The Bull says:

        “Jesus” said: “NEVER DID JESUS TOLD TO BELIEVE IN HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE ”

        My reply:

        Matthew 26:28:

        “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. ”

        To inherit eternal life, one must be cleansed of sin.
        Therefore the above verse from Matthew shows us you must believe in the death of Jesus to inherit eternal life.

        • Ibn Anwar says:

          Verses that seem to show that Jesus foresaw his alleged death at calvary for the alleged remission of sins are regarded as ahistorical by Biblical scholars. Professor Raymond Brown cite two scholars for example who regard such verses as inauthentic, “Some scholars like Todt and Higgins, who have devoted full-scale treatises to the Son of Man issue in the Gospels, do not consider sayings of this class to be genuine words of Jesus. They point out that passages dealing with the suffering Son of Man are not found in the Q tradition of the words of Jesus shared by Matt and Luke and that therefore for such sayings we have only the authority of the Marcan tradition.” (Brown, R. E. (1994). An Introduction to New Testament Christology. Mahwah, New Jersey: Paulist Press. pp. 46-47)

          Summarising his discussion on the topic Brown writes, “In summary, it is difficult to decide about Jesus’ foreknowledge of his passion, crucifixion, and resurrection. Modern criticism would cast serious doubt on a detailed foreknowledge.” (Ibid. p. 49) To Brown and others it would appear that Jesus had some inkling that he would suffer violently but this is only upon reflecting the fates of those in his trade such as the prophets of the Old Testament e.g. Jeremiah and much closer to his time his own relative John the Baptist. In short, such “prophecies” that you have cited do not have real historical value.

          • Jesus says:

            Great response citing scholars.

          • The Bull says:

            Hi Ibn Anwar and “Jesus”

            Fisrtly “Jesus” said ‘READ THE BIBLE’. We were not debating whether or not various sections of the bible are accurate or not. That is another debate. I simply showed him from the bible that my negative position on the statement (NEVER DID JESUS TOLD TO BELIEVE IN HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE) was correct.

            Ibn Anwar said: “They point out that passages dealing with the suffering Son of Man are not found in the Q tradition of the words of Jesus shared by Matt and Luke and that therefore for such sayings we have only the authority of the Marcan tradition.”

            Well, it’s still an authority isn’t it and cannot be discounted. Then there is Johns gospel and the rest of the N.T as well! You know that ‘Q’ is a hypothetical document anyway?! You are standing on quicksand my friend. Grab the rope.

          • Ibn Anwar says:

            The Bull, “Q” is a hypothetical document that best explains the ‘synoptic problem’ as per the position of the vast majority of Christian scholars. Many scholars believe that such “prophecies” that seem to have Jesus foretelling his impending doom are merely the retrospection the the gospel narrator (L Michael White in ‘Scripting Jesus’). Brown’s position is clear, that is, Jesus appreciating his own vocation which was similar to that of his predecessor John the Baptist and other OT prophets knew that death lurked in the corner. It is with such reflection of the fates of previous prophets that Jesus spoke of impending doom. There is however no solid proof that Jesus actually gave specific details about his alleged death on the cross prior to the incident proper.

        • rocky says:

          Matthew 26:26–29 (NRSV):

          While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’ Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will never again drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.’

          COMPARE TO

          Luke, however, is something quite different—something quite ‘Jewish’. Wilson tells us that the Ebionites enjoyed a communal meal more typical of a group of devout Jews:

          Wilson in How Jesus Became Christian (2008):

          The Didache takes us into the heart of one of the Ebionites’ major ceremonies, and here we are afforded a rare treat, a glimpse into how this ritual was really conducted. This was an actual mean, and the appropriate blessings are indicated. These are especially intriguing for they differ markedly from Paul’s account of the Eucharist and from later Christian tradition, which built on Paul’s version.

          The meal starts with a blessing over the cup of wine:
          We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the holy Vine of they servant David which thou has made known to us through thy servant Jesus (Didache 9).

          We notice that, unlike contemporary Christian practice, this dinner starts with the cup of wine rather than the bread. This corresponds to the Jewish Sabbath evening rituals with its blessing of the children, blessing over the wine (Kiddush), washing of hands, and then blessing over the bread—the cup first, then the bread. It also reflects the same practice at Qumran among the Dead Sea Scroll community. … It is authentically Jewish.

          Next comes the breaking of bread with its blessing:
          We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge thou hast made known to us through thy servant Jesus (Didache 9).

          As a thanksgiving meal, the Didache’s prayers ring truer as a celebration stemming from a Jewish Jesus than the alternate version that originated with Paul in the Diaspora. Hyam Maccoby, for instance, has pointed out a number of powerful objections to Pal’s version of the ceremony. For one thing, it is exceptionally difficult to imagine the injunction to drink blood arising in a Jewish context. The whole idea would have been absolutely abhorrent. The Torah provided stern prohibitions against the consumption of blood (Leviticus 7:26). In addition, the laws pertaining to the ritual slaughter of animals required the draining of all blood from the meat so that none of it is ingested. Equating wine with blood and encouraging adherents to consume this just doesn’t sound right in a Jewish context. It would be like having Jesus say that it’s okay to eat pork. Just not credible. (pp. 158–161)

  34. rocko says:

    what is THE MUSLIM OPINION ON THE FOLLOWING :

    If the Romans whacked Jesus and everyone knew, why does Paul tell everyone to obey the earthly rulers, who carry a sword for the evil? Why does Paul never mention any details or location for this event, which everyone knew (nothing to hide). Since everyone knew why are their multiple versions of it, including one in which Jesus is not crucified by the Romans? Since everyone knew that the Jews handed Jesus over to the Romans, why didn’t Paul ever include in his discussions of how Jesus and the Law were related? There could hardly be anything more symbolic or useful in condemning Jews than that they killed Jesus through the Law… as later ages found out.

    although crossan believes the crucifiction was HISTORICAL, he says that NONE OF THE gospel WRITERS WERE WITNESSES TO IT and NEITHER did they HEAR WITNESSES report ABOUT A crucifiction, crossan BELIEVES that OLD TESTAMENT PIECES were USED to create and DECORATE the crucifixion narratives.

    ..

    Criterion of oral tradition plus multiple attestation

    This criterion cannot be used for sources that are not independent. For example, a saying that occurs in all three Synoptic Gospels may only represent one source. Under the two-source hypothesis, both the authors of the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke used the Gospel of Mark in their writings; therefore, triple-tradition material represents only a single source, Mark. (The Augustinian hypothesis posits that Mark and Luke used Matthew, so once again triple-tradition material would have originated in a single source).

    Another limitation is that some sayings or deeds attributed to Jesus could have originated in the first Christian communities early enough in the tradition to be attested to by a number of independent sources, thus not representing the historical Jesus. Finally, there are some sayings or deeds of Jesus that only appear in one form or source that scholars still consider historically probable. Multiple attestation is not always a requisite for historicity, nor is it enough to determine accuracy by itself.

    READ matthew and it seems like he is making claims about jesus OUTSIDE of israel, he says that jews spread conspiracy theories about jesus and these conspiracy theories weRE WIDELY known till this day.

    bart ehrman

    THE Synoptic problem

    The synoptic gospels tell many of the stories often in the SAME SEQUENCE, jesus did this , he did this , he did this, he did this, same sequence among the synoptics.and Stories ARE Word for word the same many times. 3 sources which parrot the same story in close SEQUENCE AND order, same ACTION, THEN somebody is copying. I do a few actions and say a few words, I ask the students, write down what you seen me do so everybody in the class writes down what they seen me do. I ask 3 volunteers to tell the class what they seen me do. We see if the 3 volunteers tell the same story in the same sequence, in the same order and same words. So the questions asked are 1) anybody here has a sentence which is EXACTLY ALIKE another students sentence? What would you say if there was a paragraph exactly alike, what would you say? Obviously somebody copied some oneselse IN THE CLASS. So say 40 years from 1960 somebody says EXACTLY WHAT one of the volunteers SAID, word for word, sequence for sequence for sequence , action for action , order for order, what are you going to say? What you will say is that the guy in 1980 copied what was said in 1960.

    Another limitation is that some sayings or deeds attributed to Jesus could have originated in the first Christian communities early enough in the tradition to be attested to by a number of independent sources, thus not representing the historical Jesus.

  35. rocko says:

    over million of pagans today worshipping a god who got himself screwed, blued and tatooed so that he can appease/please/satisfy himself and this causes him to prevent him from applying his own CREATED punishment on the human beings if only you believe he SELF abused himself becoz he was very angry with your sinful deeds. judas is not going to receive vip treatment in the DEPTHs of hell for KICK STARTING christian ” atonement” theory.

    judas is going to get his soul and FLESH DESTROYED in hell, jesus’ self ABUSE which he told the father to APPLY on him isn’t anywhere CLOSE to what judas is going to get in the DEPTHS of hell.

    over million ppl are going to think about this BS of fiction and REPLAY it in thier PAGAN SINFUL minds and try thier best to remain SIN free FOR THE day lol

    all based on MAKING an IMAGE of thier god in thier PAGAN minds FEELING good that they never got thier a ssed KICKED by the pagans , instead the pagans KICKED thier gods backside good and proper then thier god further punishment himself even though he retained his backup battery/ omnipotence/ all knowing etc.

    had i had these powers i would SACRIFICE my self 1 million times coz i would know that

    1. I would never loose my life , i would be OMNIPRESENT.

    2. I would win big time coz i would not have EARTHLY pain or suffering and would receive all the fruits of heaven.

    3. all i did was CREATE MEAT, hide in it, get it BEATEN up and then fly back to heaven, and now i can DESTROY meat and SOUL how i please .

    • The Bull says:

      Rocko

      Talk about an incoherent garble, although it’s clear English is your second language. I don’t have a second language so to be fair you are ‘ahead’ of me in that regard.

      You don’t know what you are dealing with friend. Firstly our Jesus God did not get his ‘arse kicked proper’. The opposite is true. The bible tells us he defeated death and hell through the power of his blood.

      Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

      Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

      Secondly Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Imagine a King Hero without fault going through an eternity of sin, suffering and humiliation when he didn’t have to?!?!? Therefore it is ridiculous, crass and absurd of you to say that:

      “had i had these powers i would SACRIFICE my self 1 million times coz i would know that

      1. I would never loose my life , i would be OMNIPRESENT.

      2. I would win big time coz i would not have EARTHLY pain or suffering and would receive all the fruits of heaven.

      3. all i did was CREATE MEAT, hide in it, get it BEATEN up and then fly back to heaven, and now i can DESTROY meat and SOUL how i please .”

      Also, Jesus did lose his life and he did have earthly pain. You are not being true or making sense. You would not sacrifice yourself 1 million times in the same way that Jesus did. It’s impossible because he only had to pay the price of sin ONCE. Therefore, legally he cant sacrifice himself 1 million times and neither can you if you were in his position.

      The bible wins again friend and your ego takes a dive (not such a bad thing).

  36. rocky says:

    sincere question for people like bull

    quote:

    Mark 7:1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were “unclean,” that is, UNWASHED. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.) 5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”

    Mark 7:18″Are you so dull?” [Jesus] asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the OUTSIDE can make him ‘unclean’? 19For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)

    6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

    ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
    BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
    7 BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
    TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’

    8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

    end quote

    was isiyah saying what mark/jesus THOUGHT he was saying

    quote:

    This is not the Hebrew; it is an English translation of the Hebrew from an unknown source. Here is how I would translate the passage –

    Isaiah 29:13 – And the Lord said: “Because this people has come near [Me], and with its mouth and with its lips has honored Me, but has drawn its heart far away from Me, and its fear of Me has become a commandment of men that was learned by rote.

    In context, the prophet castigates the preople for the lack of sincerity in their performance of the commandments saying that their fear of God has become a command of people to which they have become accustomed, i.e., they perform the commandments that they have been taught by their parents and teachers out of force of habit, without thinking to do God’s will. The main organ involved in prayer/worship is the heart. Yet, the people bring prayerbooks, the body goes to the house of worship, the lips move, but the heart does not concentrate on worship. Rather, they go through the motions by rote, while their thoughts and heart are somewhere else, focusing on other mundane matters such as their business transactions, etc.

    end quote

    quote:

    When Mark refers to Jesus quoting the OT, of course he’s just going to grab a copy of the Septuagint and give us the standard Greek reading.

    At Mark 7 Mark puts in the mouth of Jesus an argument that is based on an erroneous translation of the Hebrew scriptures from the Septuagint. Jesus criticizes the Pharisees by quoting Isaiah saying that they are “teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.” That’s what the erroneous Septuagint says, but in fact the Hebrew reads something like “Your worship of me is merely an act of going through the motions.” It seems unlikely that the Pharisees would be stumped by a mistaken translation of Isaiah in Greek when they work with the Hebrew.

    end quote

    now to my questions for people like bull

    1. do you like being “christlike”?

    2. lets assume that jesus’ deciples went for the call of nature BEFORE the pharisees had surrounded jesus

    3. the pharisees SEE that the deciples hands were UNWASHED

    4. obviously in those days there would be bits of excrements mixed with other mess on hands. in those days it would be very easy to contract diseases.

    5.because of jesus’ “resoning” in mark 7:18 one would ASSUME that his deciples CONTINUED TO eat with UNWASHED hands because jesus GAVE them “resoning” to do so.

    6.according to jesus and his interpretation of the passage in isaiah , jc thought that the pharisees coverted man made traditions into doctrines. we would assume that the writer of mark 7:18 thought that the pharisees also thought that the hand washing traditions are actually from God.

    7. jesus thinks its ALL spiritual and one can SEE that in mark 7:18
    there is not even one suggestion on why cleaning germs from your hands would benefit but the focus is completely SHIFTED to the spiritual and
    with that focus in mind the deciples hands REMAIN UNCLEAN AND UNWASHED, SO they were doing a christlike thing when they kept their hands UNWASHED

    8. jesus is IGNORANT of germs and because of his ignorance of germs christians don’t wash their backsides and enjoyed the plague because of focusing on the SPIRITUAL MORE than the physical LOL LOL.

    9. so you bull, worship an INCAPACITATED diety who didn’t know that the tree was NOT in season and he WENT to it TO FIND figs on it even though THE SEASON WAS NOT FOR figs,

    you worship a god who helped u pagans remain unclean and have enjoyed the many european PLAGUES which YOU’re people received LOL.

  37. rocky says:

    like people have said, jc thinks that there is ONLY a RELIGIOUS issue AT STAKE with washing hands. his IGNORANCE and not all knowing about germs ,his DECIPLES continued to eat with UNWASHED and unclean hands.

  38. rocky says:

    18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and [a]is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) 20 And He was saying, “ That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, [b]fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, [c] envy, slander, [d]pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

    jesus is saying the excrement and all other crap on your hand cannot defile you and it is this logic which would keep the deciples away from washing thier hands. the focus is completely shifted to THOUGHTS and jesus’ ignorance about germs are not important because THOUGHTS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED THAN HAND WASHING . HAND WASHING IS CLEARLY not IMPORTANT according to jesus, it is the thoughts which are. this is just proof that the religion issue was thE ONLY issue on his mind and he was completely IGNORANT of the biological side.

    even a little line like the following:

    “washing is GOOD for the body , but doesn’t help the heart”

    anyone christian who tries to act christlike will obviously NOT wash thier hands just like the DECIPLES didn’t , becuase the deciples were told to focus on thought MORE THAN handwashing and by this logic hand washing would not be required.

  39. rocky says:

    jesus is saying to the deciples that eating from your unwashed hands which probably had excrement in the nails wasn’t a problem , because that which is OUTSIDE cannot defile you. so excrement on the hands and in the NAILS cannot DEFILE YOU and this is the REASON WHY THE deciples KEEP THERE HANDS UNWASHED.

  40. rocky says:

    now come on, no matter what the pharisees thought about HAND washing , if there was a law which would come from GOD it would BE HAND WASHING .

  41. rocky says:

    more reasons to consider what an IGNORANT and incapcitated diety jesus was.

    when the pharisees WASHED thier hands did they know the biological side of cleaning thier hands? what the jews and historians say is that the jews weren’t practicing hand washing in jc’s time, but when they did start to practice hand washing did they know the biological side or were they trying to SPIRITUALIZE an EXTERNAL practice?

    many times people may do things being IGNORANT of other good reasons for doing things.

    jesus’ seems to be DESPIRITUALIZING an EXTERNAL practice and @ the same time IGNORANT of other GOOD REASONS for doing external practice

    and the ONLY aspect of it he can see is the jewish spirtualizing of it ,which means that he like the pharisees was IGNORANT of the biological side.

    the jews , in ancient times, washed their hands before they touched the torah. now washing could be symbolic for clean mind/heart and God is clean ect, but that doesn’t mean the jews knew the biological side of washing.

    it would have been a perfect time for the incapacitated diety to help the jews see that cleaning and washing unwashed hands would be good for the body , but the spiritual side of it is missing.

    what is funny is that the christian god needs to spiritualize his own EXTERNAL murder of his meat and make eating ritual out of it LOL LOL

  42. rocky says:

    ” Firstly our Jesus God did not get his ‘arse kicked proper’. The opposite is true. The bible tells us he defeated death and hell through the power of his blood. ”

    so god has to get aids before he could cure aids? what does the babble tell you? some deciples DOUBTED . paul saw flashing and talking light.
    paul HEARD from UNKNOWN source that 500 UNKNOWN people saw jesus in an UNKNOWN location. jesus ,the COWARD god in meat ,dare NOT show his face AGAIN to his killers and HIDES his face BEHIND his DECIPLES and empty tombs. NOBODY, not PILATE , not the SANHEDRIN , not FESTUS go for MAN hunt for CONVICTED blasphemour jesus COWARD krist. how is GOD who CREATED death, GIVES death,and is CONTROL of DEATH defeat death? IT IS like saying god DEFEATED hunger by not EATING for 1 whole year, does such a dumb a ss saying make sense?

    “Secondly Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.”

    not according to the jews who TURNED crowds AGAINST him in 2 days. not according to the HUNDREDS and thousands of people, CONTEMPORARY to him, saw him as ORDINARY human being . jesus, your meat god, was cooked on the cross and that was enough proof that he was FAILUED pagan god LIKE all the other DEFEATED and failed gods who came before him

    don’t you see christianities PATHETIC attempt

    to redefine the following words in the tanakh

    save
    saviour
    to save
    salvation
    saving

    what the tanakh uses LITERALLY , christianity REDEFINED it to mean SPIRITUALLY . this is why your religion is pathetic, the best it could do is CHANGE and BASTARDISE tanakh

    “Imagine a King Hero without fault going through an eternity of sin, suffering and humiliation when he didn’t have to?!?!? Therefore it is ridiculous, crass and absurd of you to say that:”

    1. the king can SHOVE his suffering in the place where the sun don’t shine.
    2. i am MORE gutful and more WILLING TO DIE for my own sins
    3. i do not WANT to believe in some man god MYTH and THEN win BIG reward for believing in diety having his backside handed to him
    4.when did your god go THROUGH an ETERNITY of suffering ?
    5. when did jesus have BOTH his flesh and soul cooked in hell?
    6. when did god FORSAKE his all power and all knowing?
    7. what is DIFFICULT for a diety to SELF ABUSE himself with his CREATED hell?
    8.if the diety CREATED hell , he knew it LIKE THE back of his hand and so he APPLIED his CONTROLLED punishment unto himself
    9. THE diety, like yo yo, trasfers from one place to another and then REWARDS himself
    10. when did the trinitarian pagan god lose his life, when according to your theology, god in spirit is everywhere?
    11. imagine LOSING your entire arm AND NEVER getting it back . imagine losing your eye sight and never getting it back. imagine you lost it to save children from a fire, isn’t that MORE impressive than jesus’ self abuse to himself to appease him self/cool himself?
    12. remember your “king” believes that if you don’t BELIEVE that his blood saves you then he will make bacon out of you in the fires of hell.
    13. HOW many people sacrifice themselves based on CONDITIONS?
    When a soldier charges out into incoming fire to drag a wounded comrade to safety, and ends up dying of his wounds, that’s a sacrifice.

    “had i had these powers i would SACRIFICE my self 1 million times coz i would know that

    1. I would never loose my life , i would be OMNIPRESENT.

    2. I would win big time coz i would not have EARTHLY pain or suffering and would receive all the fruits of heaven.

    3. all i did was CREATE MEAT, hide in it, get it BEATEN up and then fly back to heaven, and now i can DESTROY meat and SOUL how i please .”

    “Also, Jesus did lose his life and he did have earthly pain. You are not being true or making sense. You would not sacrifice yourself 1 million times in the same way that Jesus did.”

    1. DID god , who is all powerfull and everywhere (your theology says he is present in christian bodies lol) SUFFER physical EARTHLY PAIN?

    did he FEEL earthly pain? if i had burnt jesus with a soldering iron would the 100 percent god hiding in him FEEL the pain?

    so who felt early pain bull?
    all powerful god hiding in jesus or the human jesus?

    ” It’s impossible because he only had to pay the price of sin ONCE. Therefore, legally he cant sacrifice himself 1 million times and neither can you if you were in his position.”

    his “sacrifice” was pathetic. if millions of people SIN and EACH PERSON DESERVES TO GET roasted in hell and i as a human who had POWER over death and pain had OPTION TO pay for all sins

    would i

    1. choose SUFFERING in eternal hell
    2.choose CRUCIFIXION and temporary death?

    3.sacrifice myself a million times to COVER all the MILLIONS of sins COMMITED

    you see bull S , jesus DID not SUFFER eternally in hell fire and neither was his soul destroyed.if one human DESERVEs ETERNAL hell fire than that would be one human LIFE in eternal hell fire . jesus cheap shoddy “sacrifice” cannot be called a punishment when SUFFERING is not eternally ATTACHED to his body.

    Matthew 10:28. “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

    so god did not destroy his soul in hell and the other 2 members in trinity didn’t even enter hell they were enjoying to scene of watching the son party in hell.

    don’t mock my english you self righteous meat worshipping christian

    if you were fair you would have mocked at the gospel of mark for grammatical and spelling mistakes, but you in your evil self christian righteousness targeted my english .

  43. rocky says:

    jesus , the god who has to REMIND himself

    “And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.”

    we are told by the polythiest christians

    the father is ALL knowing

    the spirit is all knowing

    so the father + spirit are CO-EQUAL in KNOWLEDGE

    they do not NEED AN auto PLAY BACK button to REMIND THEMSELVES what happened in the past and they don’t need an AUTO forward button to remind them WHAT will happen in the future

    lets imagine the following

    person A has memory loss in 2001

    he doesn’t know about 9/11

    person A regains his memory in 2005

    he watches 9/11 on video in 2005

    jesus ‘ came to a tree to FIND figs on it. he found nothing on it because it was not the season for figs

    jesus DIDN’T know

    now in the trinitarian game, jesus has an AUTO PLAYBACK button in his spirit nature

    this auto playback button HELPS jesus know about that which he DIDN’T know

    the father doesn’t need an auto play back button and neither does the spirit

    when jesus’ DIDN’T know he CLEARLY WAS not a co-equal in KNOWLEDGE diety along with the other 2.

    what trinitarians polythiest want people to believe is that the AUTO PLAY BACK button FILLS IN THE gap for the son god.

    what the son didn’t KNOW the auto play back HELPS him know, fills him in or tells him what had happen

    god can forget everything ,EVEN sin aswell LOL , but the auto play back button reminds him ABOUT WHAT he forgot or DIDN’T know about.

    some trinitarians know about the problems with the auto play back button

    they will see it AS ANOTHER POWERFUL entity with GOD.

    a powerful ENTITY WHICH INFORMS god about what he DIDN’T KNOW.

    so they give jesus’ 2 NATURES

    when jesus went to the fig tree that WASN’T his divine nature but his HUMAN nature

    so they outright say that the divine nature DID NOT experience forgetting/memory loss

    19 “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a
    gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

    so did all knowing god drown his knowledge in alchohol and acted like a drunkard? no the christians, say it was the human nature

    NOTICE the trick?

  44. rocky says:

    “The fact that Mark adds these words shows that he knew what he was talking about. When the fig leaves appear about the end of March, they are accompanied by a crop of small knobs, called taqsh by the Arabs, a sort of fore-runner of the real figs. These taqsh are eaten by peasants and others when hungry. They drop off before the real fig is formed. But if the leaves appear unaccompanied by taqsh, there will be no figs that year”

    one is wondering how these christians know when the encounter took place? why can’t it be argued that the not all knowing god in flesh, who could not see FRUITS on a tree from a DISTANCE, walked to it IN A COMPLETELY different season. isn’t it possible that the leaves which fall off are unaccompanied by taqsh because the season is not right? meaning there is nothing wrong with the tree and jesus in order to satisfy his hunger murdered an innocent tree?
    you can’t find nothing on figs trees, not even taqsh when the season isn’t right, why did this guy bring “end of march” when he cannot prove that the encounter took place at the end of march in the RIGHT SEASON?

    if matthew had know about the “tasqh” escuse and he knew that the season was right, why did he omit the escuse? instead why did he speed up the affect of the curse?

    When he came to it he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard it.”

    he clearly is saying “it WAS NOT the season for figs”

    meaning he knew that there was nothing WRONG WITH THE tree.

    but a flesh worshipping christian called ff bruce reads into marks mind and thinks the tree is completely FRUITLESS item lol.

    biblos interlinear

    for
    SEASON = kairos
    not
    was
    figs

    the
    indeed
    season
    not
    it was
    of figs

    “For all its fair foliage, it was a fruitless and a hopeless tree.””

    WHAT A load of BS

    that it TOOK more than 24 hours for the deciple 2 notice that the tree had withered to its roots
    makes the tree not “hopeless”
    notice how matthew SPEEDS up the curse’s AFFECT 2 “withered @ once”

    and in mark the deciples HEARD it and even if they SAW the tree there was NOTHING amazing to talk about because what was HEARD was REMEBERED the following day by petere when he said that the TREE withered

    QUOTE:
    “FF Bruce’s was using a an anachronistic explanation that was popular in Britain doing his day (1930 -1980) in that the Bible could be explained by understanding modern Arabs from the Middle East and then applying this Sitz im Leben for the Gospels authors.

    Using the etymology of Arabic words was exactly what the late Sir Geoffrey Driver (son of the Oxford Hebrew scholar SR Driver) did in the first edition of the New English Bible (1970) for the Old Testament . . . big mistake!

    I had personal conversation with Bill Holladay (editor of A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament) about 20 years ago and he complained to me about Driver’s false assumption in using modern Arabic to redefined Classical Hebrew words. Dr. Holladay said he and his group of scholars had to totally revise the 2nd ed. of the New English Bible to correct all Driver’s misguided errors.

    I would likewise heed Bill Holladay’s warning in what FF Bruce stated also.”

    QUOTE:
    Aramaic of 1st century v aramaic of 4th century

    Also, once again the anonymous author failed to take into account the considerable difference between Galilean Jewish Aramaic (a West Aramaic language) of the 1st c. CE and Syriac (a Christian East Aramaic language) of the 4th-5th c. CE in seizing upon particular vocabulary items. We know next to nothing about GJA of that period and have no idea whether those lexical items even existed in that dialect.

    arabic and syriac have rather different grammars and different vocabulary.

    Also there are many cases where we simply don’t understand the meaning of words or the grammar. In that case, it may be helpful to find parallels in other literature of the era, which might mean Akkadian, Ugaritic, Persian, etc. in the case of the Hebrew Bible.

    interpret Biblical Aramaic with an Arabic lexicon

    Jerry, to interpret Biblical Aramaic with an Arabic lexicon is just as futile as interpreting the Qur’an with a Syriac lexicon *cough*..Christoph Luxenberg..*cough*

    Though, later Arabic etymological descendants of Aramaic etymons may have hints of their original root meanings, the interpretive taint they undergo through the ages renders them outright inadmissible as an evidence regarding the earlier Aramaic etymon’s actual meaning. Whew, that was a run-on and a half.

    To answer your question: “..if we don’t turn to Arabic or Hebrew for help in interpreting an Aramaic word, what should we turn to?”

    You turn to an Aramaic Lexicon to understand an Aramaic word. Not Arabic. Not “Chineese” (sic). We’re talking about Old Judean Western Galilean Aramaic.

    To turn to Arabic which is a Nabatean offspring to understand Western Aramaic of the 1st century CE is just plain ridiculous to put it as politely as possible.
    END QUOTE

    SO TELL me “defendkrist” HOW did THE verse about jesus cursing fig TREE read like in aramaic/syriac/hebrew IN THE 1st century?

    oh, i forgot, NO 1ST century manuscript of mark EXISTS lol

    and the LATE 3rd century manuscripts are all in GREEK

  45. rocky says:

    notice that ff broch is trying to save jesus by making a connection between “tasqh” and “for it was not the season for figs” what happens when you expose and remove that connection?
    jesus , as mark tells us, was an ignorant who was

    1. hungry
    2. could not see what was on a tree FROM A distance
    3. killed it for no GOOD REASON.

    LOL

  46. t67 says:

    i also realize that your moronic interpretation has to have jesus explain 2 times that the deciples could do greater things like move mountains.

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