Response to Dr. James White

Unveiling Dr. James White

by Ibn Anwar

    Very recently my article on God is not a man was posted on brother Zami Zaatari’s site muslim-responses.com. It got the attention of the notorious Sam Shamoun who then directed Dr. James White to it. As a result of that Dr. James White of the Alpha and Omega ministries produced a 20 minutes and 45 seconds long video response to the article(or to a fraction of the article). Before you watch Dr. White’s response you should first read the article in question. Click here to read the article. The following is the video response. 


I was actually deliberating on whether I should dignify Dr. White’s response or not. Some of my friends said that I should whilst others said it would be a waste of time. Eventually, as you can see I decided to go for it lest I be deemed defeated. If I had remained silent without any response whatsoever it might have seemed that I gave in to Dr. White’s assessments thus rendering my article on the issue moot. I do not want people to get misled by Dr. White’s apparent eloquence if I can help it. Let us begin with the reply.

*In the article I will make time frame citations to the video response so that the readers will be able to refer back to the video if they need to.

Listening to Dr. White’s response one gets the impression that he tries to treat the article as if its focus is on the doctrine of the Trinity per se. Anyone who has read the article carefully will be able to see that it isn’t so. Although the article mentions the Trinity a few times its main focus is on Jesus being a man and what that entails. I have tried to show in the article that precisely three verses found in the Old Testament disqualify Jesus as God. I did not discuss the details of the Trinity as a doctrine, but tried to show that if Jesus isn’t God then there is no Trinity.

At the beginning of the response Dr. White said that I am, “a gentleman that has misunderstood in a serious manner my teaching on the subject of the incarnation.” Instead of naming my supposed erronuous understanding immediately after that accusation he somewhat goes off on a tangent and starts to accuse the Muslim masses of ignorance regarding the Trinity and spent sometime on that in a way that may lead the viewers to think that he is elaborating on my supposed misconception when in fact he isn’t. He says that the Muslims’ misunderstanding is, “…not because of a lack of clarity on our part.” He does concede however that there are Christians who themselves do not really comprehend the concept but coated it with diplomatic words instead saying, “granted I’m sure they have to deal with Chritians who are somewhat less than accurate in their understandig of the Trinity. There are Christians like that.”

Dr. Anis Shorrosh recently convicted for arson is a Christian theologian and he wrote in his book The Liberated Palestianian that he is thankful to the Father for dying for his sins. I had the opportunity to discuss Christian beliefs with Pastor Iben Arang of the Anglican Cathedral of St. Mary the Virgin in Kuala Lumpur which is situated just beside the Sultan Abdul Samad building and the Merdeka Square both of which are popular tourist sites in the city. Pastor Iben explained the Trinity to me in this way, “In the past there was the Father, then he decided to come as the Son(about 2000 years ago) and now we have the Holy Spirit with us.” Basically, what he was saying is that the Father came down to be the Son and then the Son after His crucifixion came back as the Holy Spirit who now resides with us. So they are all basically the same guy. And then he went on to say that Muslims don’t undersand this and think that he worships multiple Gods when in reality they are just the same guy. Can we describe these understandings or rather misunderstandings on the Christians’ part as merely “less than accurate” ? What do you think? I challenge anyone to go and talk to 30 or more Trinitarians who do not know each other and see how many of them are consistent with one another in their understanding.

I have been talking to Christians for the past 6 years or so and honestly I have encountered numerous different understandings on what the Trinity means. As an example, many a time sincere Trinitarians would unknowingly resort to modalism to prove Jesus’ divinity. In fact, I was in Royalson’s (a frequent Christian paltalk chatter) room on paltalk last week which is called “Christians pray for Muslims” under the social issues, human rights section with over 60 people in it most of whom were Christians discussing Christian beliefs. One Arab Christian came up and actually gave a modalist perspective and the whole room cheered him on even after I explained that he has committed a heresy according to Trinitarian belief. It would then appear that we Muslims are not the only ones who do not really comprehend the Trinity.

Dr. James White however, is of the opinion that the Trinity is simple. In fact he says in his response, “The reality is the doctrine of the Trinity is fairly easily defined and has been around for a long long time, therefore, to understand what it’s saying is not that difficult…” Notice that he says the doctrine has been around for a long time and therefore(because of that) it is easy to understand. Hindu anthropomorphism and pantheism have been around longer than the Trinity and yet if you were to ask 30 Hindus hardly anyone will be able to provide a cogent answer because Hinduism is simply a mess and the people make up their own gods whenever they wish. Prolonged period of time does not necessitate easeness in comprehension. If it did we wouldn’t find Christians(many Christians even learned ones) stumbling all over the place trying to explain the Trinity to themselves and others. Dr. White suggests that we go to systematic theologians for correct understanding of the Trinity. The rule of thumb is of course to go to the experts. No problem. Let’s go to an expert in the field and see what he says about the Trinity. How about we look at the words of Dr. Millard Erickson who’s a professor of Systematic Theology at Western Seminary, Portland, Oregon. He was also professor of theology at Bethel University seminary and also taught at Baylor University. He writes,

“This doctrine in many ways presents strange paradoxes…It is a widely disputed doctrine, which has provoked discussion throughout all the centuries of the church’s existence. It is held by many with great vehemence and vigor. These advocates are certain they believe the doctrine and consider it crucial to the Christian faith. Yet many are unsure of the exact meaning of their belief. It was the very first doctrine dealt with systematically by the church, yet it is still one of the most misunderstood and disputed doctrines. Further, it is not clearly or explicitly taught anywhere in scripture, yet it is widely regarded as a central doctrine, indispensable to the Christian faith. In this regard, it goes contrary to what is virtually an axiom[that is, a given, a self-evident truth] of biblical doctrine, namely, that there is a direct correlation between the scriptural clarity of a doctrine and its cruciality to the faith and life of the church.” [1] (emphasis added)

So according to the above testimony from a prominent theologian the Trinity is widely disputed and misunderstood. This is something that should not exist if indeed as Dr. White claims, “it is fairly easily defined”.

Dr. White then goes on to say that, “at least, you can go back to 15, 16, 17 hundred years and find a lot of consistency in what is being said on the central issues.” Yet, Dr. Erickson glaringly says that it is widely disputed and misunderstood! But anyway, let us say for the sake of argument that Dr. White is correct in his estimation. What I would like to know is why does he not trace it back to the early initial years of Christianity? If you trace the Trinity back 1700 years ago there’s a gap of over three hundred years! Where was the Trinity in those first three hundred years? I would suggest people purchase Prof. Bart Ehrman’s Lost Scriptures and Lost Christianities for in depth information on other theological ideas that existed in the early years of Christianity and got stamped out by what eventually became “Orthodoxy”. In fact, Dr. White somewhat seems to be echoing the words of the Catholic encyclopedia which says regarding the Trinity,

“There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma ‘One God in three Persons’ became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought … it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development.” [2] (emphasis added)

So who brought and defined the Trinity? Which or what Prophet? NONE! This doctrine was developed by men who are now regarded by mainstream Christians as Church Fathers or early Christian theologians at the expanse of other concepts that existed at that time that are now deemed heretical. One cannot help but compromise strict adherence to the so called idea of sola scriptura(only scripture) in order to arrive at the Trinity. For if you only went by scripture without the assistance of theologians you will miss the Trinity and may come up with other strange doctrines concerning God. Thus, the Trinity depends on the tradition of men which is rather ironic for the Protestants who oppose Catholocism because of its dependance on the “tradition of men”.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica tells us that, “…in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament. The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies…” [3] (emphasis added)

“Belief in God as Three-in-One is as old as Christianity itself. The word Trinity doesn’t appear as a theological term till near the end of the second century. It was first used as ‘Trias’ by Theophilus, the Bishop of Antioch in AD. 180 and later by Tertullian as Trinitas to signify that God exists in three persons. * * * Trinity is a mystery as well as a doctrine, which is beyond our intuitive recognition and faculty. One God in Three persons, that is the mystery of the Holy Trinity.” [4]
 
    Dr. White continues lambasting the Muslims, “why are there such confusion on the part of Muslims on the subject?” Well, perhaps it is because Christians themselves are confused as illustrated? If you have been discussing with Christians you will inadvertantly encounter this very common script from them which goes somewhere along the lines of, “You cannot understand because you do not have the Holy Spirit!” This is essentially what Lehman Strauss says, “The Apostle Paul wrote, ”And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh . . . ” (I Timothy 3:16). Confessedly, by common consent the Incarnation of Jesus Christ is outside the range of human natural comprehension and apprehension. It can be made known only by Divine revelation in the Holy Scriptures, and to those only who are illumined by the Holy Spirit.” So this idea of Jesus becoming man cannot be understood by the human mind, but rather by divine intervention! It goes without saying that the same is true for the Trinity. If that is the case why complain when Muslims don’t understand as understanding is contingent on divine revelation via the dwelling of the Holy Spirit? However, this standard would appear to fail even Christians themselves! Paul says, “no one can say,”Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.”(1 Corinthians 12:3) So it is only by the Holy Spirit one can say Jesus is Lord. I am quite certain that both Dr. Anis Shorrosh and Pastor Iben Arang being confirmed Christians have said on numerous occassions that ‘Jesus is Lord’ which indicates the presence of the Holy Spirit with/in them according to 1 Corinthians 12:3. If that is the case one would expect correct understanding of the crucial Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Yet, as we have illustrated they do not grasp it even then. So is the Holy Spirit a failure? What is it?

Dr. White then continues, “I think Islam forces the confusion upon them through its misrepresentation of the doctrine…certainly the Qur’an never identifies the doctrine of the Trinity in ny accurate fashion, and to an depths watsoever.” Does Islam really mispresent the Trinity? I would ask Dr. White to please get hold of Dr. Louay Fatoohi’s book The Mystery of the Historical Jesus for clarification and to stop making basless remarks on this. Afterall, Dr. White enjoys reiterating that he goes back to Islamic sources to try his level best not to misrepresent Islam. Shabir Ally had explained what the Qur’an says regarding Christian theology to Dr. James White in their debates yet Dr. White repeats the same thing again and again. It gets boring after a while. In any case I find it totally ironic(bordering on hypocrisy) that he accuses the Qur’an of not presenting an accurate or in-depth description on the Trinity as if that affects its integrity when that is PRECISELY the problem that Christians face with the New Testament, nay the Bible(s)! We have already seen the words of Dr. Millard Erickson who elsewhere in the same book says, “For here is a seemingly crucial matter where the Scriptures do not speak loudly and clearly.” [5] Roger Olson and Chris Hill mention, “Nowhere is it clearly and unequivocally stated in scripture.” [6] Shirley Guthrie who is a professor of Systematic Theology at Columbia Theological Seminary puts it even more bluntly,

“The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Neither the word “Trinity” itself nor such language as “one-in-three”, “three-in-one, one “essence” (or “substance”), and three “persons” is biblical language. The language of the doctrine is the language of the church taken from classical Greek philosophy… The doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible…” [7]

The fact that the Trinity is neither clearly nor explicitly taught in the Bible is also observed in mainstream works like The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology and The New International Dictionary of New Testament Testament Theology.

In no more than 2 minutes and 35 seconds Dr. James White has dug a rather deep hole for himself. Need I go on? Well, if I didn’t I would seem cheeky and I don’t want to be perceived as cheeky. So, let’s proceed.

Dr. James White then goes on to mention Ahmed Deedat who he says misrepresented the Trinity. Whether he did or not is none of my concern and I’m not sure why he’s even bringing Ahmed Deedat to the table. Nowhere in my article did I allude to Deedat’s arguments. I have watched most of Ahmed Deedats talks and debates. I have hardly found instances where he actually used any of the three verses that I have employed in my article to disprove Jesus’ alleged divinity. Anyway, let’s move on.

At 3:18 to 3:34, Dr. White reads Numbers 23:19(God is not a man…nor the son of man) and says that he has used this many times when talking to Mormons. I am glad that he has done so because now we do not have to bicker over the translation which will be important later.

At 5:00, he states that that what I have written displays, “fundamental misunderstanding on the part of Muslims when Christians speak of the incarnation of Jesus Christ.” He then says that the logos took on the flesh at 5:27.

At around 6:35 onwards he reads what I wrote,

God did not actually become man. What happened was that God manifested Himself in the flesh. So the verse does not contradict the fact that Jesus was both man and God at the same time.

 This argument is favoured by apologists like VenomFangX. It basically postulates that God dwelt in the human cocoon made of flesh and that the flesh itself was not divine and God certainly did not transform into the flesh.

After reading that  at 6:50 he blasts me with the accusation, “tremendous amount of confusion on the part of the author.” First of all, it’s not even my view to begin with. I was merely reporting what the Trinitarian Christians propose and in this instance I named VenomFangX whom I spoke to on this very subject two days before I wrote the article. Dr. White accuses me of “TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF CONFUSION”, yet if you listen carefully he does not actually show you clearly where the supposed confusion is. He then goes on to explain from 7:05 onwards that, “we affirm that the human nature that Jesus represents to us, the logos, the word became flesh. That human nature is a true human nature. He was truly human. It wasn’t just uh an outward cocoon indwelt by deity.” Where did I write that the cocoon was meaningless flesh that was not fully and truly human simply indwelt by the deity??? You can see how Dr. White has started a straw man. What does reincarnation mean? Lehman Strauss in his Why God Became Man? article writes at the beginning, “It is derived from the Latin in and caro (flesh), meaning clothed in flesh, the act of assuming flesh” In other words, the flesh was like a cocoon! So where is the error in what I wrote? Nowhere!

At 7:26 to 7:28 he reads the part where I wrote, “the flesh itself isn’t divine” to which he remarked, “well, of course not.” And then he goes onto say that this is one of the early errors in Christology that was rejected. He then further argued that, “The incarnation is not that God ceased to be God and became flesh. It is not that you have the deity here and the flesh here and becomes an intertwining so that you have 50% God and 50% man. So, there is a fundamental confusion on the part of Ibn Anwar here.” I challenge anyone to show me where I said that God ceased to be God and became flesh and that when the incarnation happened it was 50% God and 50% man! Where did I say any of those things? Nowhere! Again…straw man.

From 9:30 onwards he claims that I have misrepresented his position in the debate he had with Sami Zaatari when they were discussing the incarnation. He is referring to my mentioning of Sami’s debate with him in the UK in my article. He then says, “Lord willing the actual debate footage is finally going to be delivered to us hopefully in the near future so that we can finally provide to everyone as we wanted to all along.” What the heck is this guy on about? What jungle has he been living in? The debate has been out for about three months now! Everyone can watch it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f24JASepa34&feature=channel_page.

From 10:15 to 10:23, he repeats again the straw man that, “it is not 50% God and 50% man and so to assert that I was saying that is completely inaccurate. The essential nature of God did not change.” He then says, “He does not cease being all powerful, He does not cease being eternal(11:03 to 11:04) etc. in the incarnation.” For one more time, where in the world did I assert that in the incarnation it was divided to 50% God and 50% man? Am I confused or is Dr. White confused? What about the unchanging essential nature of God in the incarnation according to Dr. White? Well, maybe Dr. White forgot that Trinitarians believe that Jesus lowered himself and became a servant? That is the word used by Trinitarians to describe Jesus’ lowly position before the Father during his ministry e.g. he did not know the hour. Perhaps Dr. White needs to reread his basics.

From 13:10 to 13:21 he reads the part where I mention that he had a debate with Abdullah Al-Andalus and conceded that the Son of God(who is himself fully God) died. But then he starts the common Trinitarian word gymnastics game. Please watch the part carefully and you will agree with me that what he explains is just pure confusion. He tries to explain that to die does not mean to cease to exist! When the Son died there was no ceasation of existence, but rather he gave his life. It was the giving of life he says. I pray for the day that these folk can speak without tongue in cheek. I never once mentioned anywhere in the article that death = ceasation of existence. This is yet another straw man.  At 13:41 he agrees explicitly that Jesus died saying, “of course”, but then he starts talking about caesation and non-ceasation of existence in death again as if that is what I implied!

At 14:50, he agrees that Christians must accept the position in order to be consistent with their theology. However, he misunderstood what I meant by that. Dr. White thought that I meant the divinity of Jesus. I’ll reproduce the sentences from the article here,

“Ergo, the death on the cross was not simply experienced by the flesh, but also by the divine part of Jesus. This position has to be accepted by Christians who take him as God so as to remain consistent with their theology as we shall see.”

Anyone reading that can see that the last sentence is a direct continuation of the previous. What I meant was that Christians must agree that Jesus died bodily and spiritually(the fully God part also) which Dr. White actually agreed to as did Jay Smith whom I cited in the article. What is the point? You will see in a moment.

At 15:04, he starts to read the paragraph where I mention John 1 and says that it’s a strong text, but then he wonders why Muslims do not engage in stronger texts like Titus 2:13 etc. that prove Jesus’ divinity. He then accused Muslims of borrowing from Jehovah’s Witnesses rather than doing first level research in this subject. Where and what exactly have I borrowed from the JWs in my article?? I did not cite John 1 to try and refute the Trinitarian interpretation on it(that it shows Jesus as divine) as is the assertion made by Dr. White. I have cited it to prove a very crucial point which I will have to reiterate here soon. At 16:10, Dr. White claims that , “It sems that Ibn Anwar thinks that God ceased being God and transmuted into something else. That’s clearly not John’s message…” Not at all. Let me explain the whole excercise here as simply as possible. We have seen that Dr. White, Jay Smith and other Christians believe that when Jesus died it was the so called “God-man” who died i.e. both the man(truly human) and the God(truly God) died in which case they must now agree that the God part was imbued into the flesh since Spirits in reality cannot be harmed by human means, let alone killed. This is what we find in Luke 12:4, ““I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body(soma), and after that have nothing more they can do.” If the body dies, expires or whatever the Spirit does not. If Trinitarians say that God the Son died then the implication of that is that the fully man was indeed the fully God despite their saying that the flesh itself isn’t divine. This then means that God really became man which is in fact the message of John 1:14 provided we accept the Trinitarian understanding of logos = theos and the logos who is theos BECAME flesh. It does not say that the flesh was covering some spirit dwelling inside. Numbers 23:19 clearly negates the idea that theos is a man and yet Trinitarians claim that theos who is logos and vice versa literally became man. Any reasonable person will be able to see that there is a clear contradiction involved. Trinitarians often like to equate certain attributes or titles given to Jesus with those given to God in the Old Testamet then make the conclusion that they’re really the same being which is why they share same attributes and titles. Yet, when we want to apply the same standard with Jesus being A MAN with three explicit verses in the Old Testament saying that God isn’t a man they are not willing to employ that standard anymore and wish to instead get us into a convoluted theological gymnastics. In the video response Dr. White has only really covered the 2nd rebuttal part and left out the other points discussed in the article. I invite the readers to please consider all the points mentioned including the ones that Dr. White thinks he has refuted. Lastly, we come to “The Son of God” which was mentioned earlier. In my article I have illustrated that the verse attacks the idea that Jesus is God in a two-pronged approach. One would be that God isn’t a man which what our discussion has revolved around so far. The other is that God is not the Son of Man. Who is the Son of Man? Jesus! One of the verses used by Trinitarians to prove Jesus is God is Mark 14:62 where Jesus predicts the Son of Man coming in the clouds sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One. Michael Licona a New Testament historian and Christian apologist used this verse to argue for Jesus’ divinity which can be watched here. How can the verse prove Jesus is God when Numbers 23:19 clearly says that God is NOT the Son of Man? More than 80 times Jesus is called the Son of Man why should Numbers 23:19 not be applied to Jesus? The reason is because if it is applied to Jesus, he ceases to be God and Trinitarians obviously will not stand for that. I would like to thank Dr. James White for taking the time to respond to my article and brother Sami Zaatari for continuing to post my articles on his website.

Notes:

* Dr White says that Jesus, the Son of God who is God the second person died and so the Father was there to look after the universe. In his response he expanded on this and included the Holy Spirit. What he has done is reduced the Trinity to only two persons at least at the time of the death of “the Son” on the cross. What was the son doing if he did not cease to exist before he was “reincarnated”? Was  sleeping? In addition, saying that the second person who is fully God died goes against 1 Timothy 6:16, “He alone has endless life and lives in inaccessible light. No one has ever seen him, nor can anyone see him. Honor and eternal power belong to him! Amen” Dr. White also stated at 11:03 to 11:04 that God is eternal. To be eternal is to never experience death. Everybody knows that. If 1 Timothy 6:16 is about the Father and not Jesus then Jesus is also disqualified as God or maybe he will have to be demotted to a lesser position by Trinitarians and those who worship him. That is because the verse identifies that He(God) alone(monos) has endless life(athanasian).

The following is a brief exchange I had with my good friend HopeinChrist who happens to be a Trinitarian and also Dr. White’s fan.

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: lol

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: hi

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: did u watch the video?

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: : p

HopeinChrist: Hi

HopeinChrist: sorry, which video?

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: lol the one James White made

HopeinChrist is currently chatting in, Christians pray for Muslims

HopeinChrist: oh

HopeinChrist: it’s a video?

HopeinChrist: I looked on his blog

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: yea

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: do you believe God was killed?

HopeinChrist: no

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: did God die?

HopeinChrist: I believe God incarnate died on the cross.

HopeinChrist: but I would not just say “God died”

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: lol

HopeinChrist: I would say God incarnate died

HopeinChrist: so

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: so the flesh died but not the God part?

HopeinChrist: you can laugh

HopeinChrist: I mean that the Son, who is God in the flesh, died on the cross.

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: so God did die

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: but the second person that is

HopeinChrist: like I said

HopeinChrist: I think it’s more accurate and specific to say God incarnate died.

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: when you say that I don’t think you’re being clear either to yourself or to me

HopeinChrist: so why you must press it into “God died” I don’t know

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: i want to know from you as a trinitarian

HopeinChrist: I think I’m being MORE clear.

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: did the flesh die or did the God part dwelling in the flesh die or both?

HopeinChrist: again

HopeinChrist: I’m not sure which words you aren’t understanding

HopeinChrist: but I believe God the Son BECAME flesh

HopeinChrist: He added humanity to His deity

HopeinChrist: and He died on the cross

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: THANK YOU

Ibn Anwar Al-Shafie: : D

HopeinChrist: You’re welcome.

—-END OF EXCHANGE—-

 

References:

[1] Millard J. Erickson. God in Three Persons, A  Contemporary Interpretation(1995). Grand Rapids: Baker Books. p. 11

[2] The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV. p. 295

[3] Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 11. p. 928

[4] http://www.christiancadre.org/topics/trinity.html

 [5] Millard J. Erickson. Op. Cit. p. 108-109

[6] Roger E. Olson, Christopher A. Hall. The Trinity(2002). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans. p. 1

[7] Shirley C. Guthrie. Christian Doctrine(1994). Louisville, Westminster: John Knox Press. p. 76-80

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13 Responses to “Response to Dr. James White”

  1. ARMY OF JESUS IS ISLAM says:

    Selamu alaykum wr wb, to my dear brother ibn anwar, I watched Dr james white video, and im thankful that this Trinitarian stooge exposed himself saying that the second person in the trinity which is God Jesus died, contradicting his statement that God does not die which he stated early in the video. He Also exposed himself yet again by claiming that mormons are polytheist for believing in MAN GOD. Yet Dr jams white Claimed at minute(10:10)that jesus was a man GOD. And then claimed that the man God Jesus as second person died? umm… hello is this guy for real? what makes you different now from Mormon belief Mr. White?

    YOU ARE BOTH CLEAR POLYTHEIST..EXPOSED YET AGAIN AT UNVEILING-CHRISTINITY.

  2. Zayed Ahmed says:

    asalamwalikum

    on this account i would like to add one more point although i didn’t watch jmes whites video which is that in the NT it said jesus is son of man 84 times and people called him son of god 64 times

  3. ibnsaad says:

    LoL, the chat between you and Hope was a good touch. She has no idea what she is saying.

  4. Captain Planet says:

    If to die does not mean “cease to exist” and, therefore, we say that Jesus – who is supposed to be God, the second person of the Trinity – did not “cease to exist” even though he died, then his death was really not a permanent offering… in which case, how would that atone for the sins of mankind?

    Trinitarians often play these word games. The fact they have to do this itself, for me, is sufficient proof for the falsity of the Trinity. It just does not seem reasonable that God would confuse humanity with such confusing notions about Himself.

    I personally avoid having such discussions with Christians because even if we assume that the Trinity makes perfect logical sense – which it does not – it does not follow that it is right.

    From a purely historical perspective – and I am attempting to talk here as a historian and not as a Muslim – it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that Jesus, a Jew of first century Palestine, thought of himself as divine in any sense, let alone the second person of the Trinity. Moreover, there is no proof whatsoever that the Jews were expecting the Messiah to be a divine being, let alone the second person of the Trinity (they did not even entertain a Trinitarian concept of God, they were Unitarians!).

    Historical Jesus scholars are largely agreed upon the above: that it is highly unlikely and most improbable that the historical Jesus was going around preaching his divinity to the people.

    Catherine M. Murphy, Under the heading “Things Jesus Didn’t Talk About”, writes:

    ++++

    His own divinity: One of the cardinal principles of historical Jesus research is that the belief in Jesus’s divinity is a post-resurrection phenomenon. During his life, his acts of power were understood as signs that God (or Satan) was working through him – not that he was God.

    The gospel of John presents Jesus teaching that he’s divine, but most scholars treat this as a later interpretation rather than a historical fact because it’s so much more highly developed here than in the earlier gospels and gospel sources …

    Catherine M. Murphy, The Historical Jesus For Dummies, 2007, John Wiley & Sons, Indianapolis: Indiana, p. 178.

    ++++

    James White goes around conveying the impression as if he is representing mainstream scholarship. But the truth is just the opposite. The perspective on Jesus he is presenting is one which is widely dismissed by scholars.

    Thus, if Jesus is most unlikely to have claimed to be God, then out goes the Trinity.

    Does it now matter if the Trinity makes “sense?” It does not. It still remains historically baseless.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      Assalamu’alaikum,

      You are quite right in your assessment on Dr. White’s skeedadling around the issue on what entails death..he has caused an enormous amount of confusion in his explanation. Confusion is a given in any Trinitarian discourse or at least those that I have encountered. The fact that the Trinity requires a lot of mumbo jumbo and heavily uses terms that are not found in the texts of scripture as Shirley Guthrie points out is enough to cause a reasonable amount of doubt and suspicion over the doctrine. What I was trying to illustrate in my article ‘God is not a man’ is that if both the man and the God died then God is indeed the man because it is an axiom that Spirits cannot be harmed by human means. I have already explained the above response. It really does not matter if it goes against established Trinitarian thought. I believe that the Trinitarians must accept that the flesh was itself God as John 14 says(provided one goes with the Trinitarian interpretation on the passage). This then disqualifies Jesus as God according to Numbers 23:19 and the other two verses discussed in my article. Ceasation of existence was not on the agenda and I did not imply in any way that the logos lost its divine nature when it took upon itself human form(flesh)…this is nothing more than Dr. White’s straw man.

      • Captain Planet says:

        Given the fact that that abusive idiot Sam Shamoun is White’s “teacher” on Islam, it comes as no surprise that White is a master of committing straw man arguments. Not only that, he seems quite unfamiliar with modern historical Jesus scholarship as well. In his previous debates with Shabir Ally, no matter which scholar was named by the latter, White charged Ally with citing “liberals” and “anti-supernaturalists” and the “Jesus seminar.”

        At when point when Shabir Ally mentioned that Jesus was a Jew of of his time and how we should consider him in light of his first century Palestinian context, White hit back (this is just typing from my memory, not his literal words): “you mean the Jesus seminar?” I was like &^%^&*^$! He really didn’t know that ALL serious historical Jesus scholars adopt this approach and not just the “Jesus seminar” scholars.

        He is also an expert at committing ad hominem attacks. I strongly suspect that White will accuse you of citing “anti-supernaturalist” scholars and “liberals” 🙂

  5. 1MoreMuslim says:

    Assalamou 3alykom,
    For those who know my channel on Youtube, my favourite hobby on youtube is to watch videos of Christians apologetics and expose their inconsistency. Presently I am searching material on the Trinity, to demonstrate that this Doctrine is not understood even among the knowledgeable Christian apologetics. Ibn Anwar has done this remarkably in his article, but a video would be more striking.

    Currently I am looking for a video of Dr White where he says that the Trinity cannot be explained in nature. If someone knows where I can find that video , please send it to me.

  6. dbadguy says:

    this guy beleives in 3 gods i swear to u

  7. Dojj says:

    james white always says “do muslims say GOD is incapable of becoming flesh”
    he reminds me of the athiest who says ” is god capable of making a rock he cant cary”
    u see the question in itself is wrong
    the athiest is saying is the one who can do everything incapable of not doing something
    the idiot just said he can do everything
    same thing with the christian the christian is asking can the eternal die u idiot u just said hes eternal why are u asking if he can die
    u idiot u just said hes god how can u ask can he be a man :)))

  8. holy ghost says:

    So he accepts a human sacrifice?

    These people are pathetic .. death as understood by any normal thinking human being is the cessation of life, which admittedly occurred here according to these people … amazing how the creator of the universe was killed by his own creation

  9. holy ghost says:

    christian jesus seems to have dissociative identity disorder from my observations … always switching back from human jesus to god jesus … like a coin with two sides

  10. Daniel R says:

    You should read Alister McGrath’s “Heresy” book. He is an orthodox and apostate Trinitarian who claims Doceticism is heresy not even realizing that his own Trinitarian, apostate, intoxication replaces “Christ spirit” with “God the Son” spirit. It is McGrath that is a hell-bound Docetic Antichrist scum according to the Bible (2 John 1:7)! He is also CERTAIN to note in the book that heresies CENTER around a WELL-MEANING philosophical idea. Reminds me of Trinitarian apostates stating how “Oh, it is a mystery and God HAS to be a mystery!” or “Oh, stop trying to understand God who is FAR beyond our comprehension!” or “We need the Trinity to present us how to live with others!” or the Hell-bound Docetic and mislabeled “Saint”, Augustine the “Damnable and Apostate Fraud” would state “No sophistry should be used against this doctrine” as well as “God needs to be a Trinity to love people, how else can he love himself!” and one final argument that the idolaters use – “It is not a sacrifice of intellect!” (Ralph A. Smith who believes that you need the Messiah to help you understand it – WHERE in Christ’s teachings does He EVER explain to His disciples what the hell this damnable doctrine teaches!). As can be demonstrated quite thoroughly, the Trinity doctrine has ALL the qualifications that it would take for the apostate Alister McGrath to label it “heresy”. Perhaps even “damnable heresy” (what the Trinity doctrine really is). Only one reason McGrath does not do so…this is because McGrath himself is a Trinitarian heretic.

  11. Daniel R says:

    Sorry, I meant to include that you can clearly see that with Augustine’s anti-sophistry and/or anti-intellectualism to protect this idolatrous and unscriptural doctrine conflicts with Ralph Allen Smith (who makes attacks on anti-Trinitarians like myself who see past ALL of the apostate’s deceptions) who said that it is NOT a sacrifice of intellect!

    I was once talking with a Oneness Pentecostal who was trying to tell me that all of the anti-Oneness doctrine verses in the Bible actually contradict the Bible who accused ME of being a Trinitarian apostate! She kept saying “Jesus is God” and “You are calling Jesus a liar” etc. (Oneness Pentecostals are Modalists.) She was also saying how she used to be a Trinitarian but now believes in one God under the name of the demon (Oneness Pentecostals deny Christ more than the Trinitarian scum do) “Jesus” (how ridiculous! the Trinity TEACHES monotheism and has NEVER taught polytheism) which goes back to what you said about the Holy Spirit. She says Jesus IS Lord and Jesus IS God yet does not understand that the Trinity is monotheism. Is the Holy Spirit not in her?

    And as for Sam Shamoun (the apostate Trinitarian) – This a video I have published exposing him as nothing more than affiliated with the Antichrist, God-man delusion cult:

    According to the Bible, Sam Shamoun is UN-saved! LOL at that!

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