Preservation and Reliability of the Qur’an

Is the Qur’an truly preserved as the Muslims claim?

by Ibn Anwar, BHsc. (Hons)

It is We Who have sent down the Reminder (Qur’an) and We Who will preserve it. (al-Qur’an 15:9)

“Allah sent down(revealed) the Reminder(Qur’an) to the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. and preserved it thoroughly. Since its first revelation until now not one letter or word has disappeared or suffered alteration.” [1]

The above sums up the general attitude of Muslims towards the Qur’an. Billions have had the belief strongly embedded in their hearts and minds that the Qur’an since the time of the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. have stood against the test of time and remain perfectly preserved in its pristine beauty, eloquence and grandeur. Is this attitutde a mere hallucination of the Muslims or is it grounded in sound understanding and evidence? There are those from outside the Muslim camp who maintain that our belief is nothing but a figment of our imagination (or something to that effect). These detractors would argue that the Qur’an hasn’t been properly preserved and have been tampered with as a result of which there are “variants” in the Qur’anic material or manuscript evidence. This article aims at answering that line of argument and strongly reaffirming the Muslim position. In truth the impetus for this article is a short piece that I read several hours ago. A good brother by the name Army of Jesus is Islam directed me to the article and requested that I produce refutations. I thank the brother for bringing the article to my attention and I will try to fulfill his request in due course. The article in question can be read here http://islamoscope.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/variant-readings-are-they-all-the-same/

Historical Development in the preservation of the Qur’an

The discipline that is involved with the systematic study of the Qur’an in areas like tafsir, al-nasakh wa mansukh, asbab al-nuzul etc. is called ‘Ulum al-Qur’an or Sciences of the Qur’an. Though the sub-disciplines of Sciences of the Qur’an are many and developed throughout early Muslim history they may all be traced back to the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. himself. Whenever the ashab or companions encountered difficulties in precepts of the religion they would refer back to the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. for answers. Thus the prophet Muhammad s.a.w. was a living embodiment of all the different branches of the Sciences of the Qur’an, nay he was the source for guidance and illumination. After the Prophet’s s.a.w. demise however, specifics in the Sciences of the Qur’an began to emerge in tandem with the growth of the Muslim power, influence and communities. The immediate companions of the Prophet s.a.w. themselves directly contributed their efforts to branches like tafsir, asbab al-nuzul, al-nasakh and gharib al-Qur’an many of whom were very prominent such as Abu Bakr, Umar al-Khattab, Uthman bin Affan, Ali bin Abi Talib, Abdullah bin Abbas, Zaid bin Thabit, Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari, Abdullh bin Mas’ud, Zayd bin Thabit and Abdullah bin Zubayr r.a.

The early khulafa’ or caliphs themselves actively exerted efforts to preserve the Qur’an culminating with the compilation of the Qur’an into a single dialect(the Quraish dialect)which was then made into several copies and were sent to different regions of the empire which founded the basis for Rasm al-Qur’an undertaken by the committe headed by the companion Zayd bin Thabit and assisted by Abdullah bin Zubayr and others under the auspices of the third caliph Uthman bin Affan as Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani informs in Fath al-Bari,

“As per Abu Hatam Sajastani seven copies of the Qur’an Shareef were prepared after copying from that which was compiled during Abu Bakr Siddiq’s time, and which was kept with Hadhrat Hafsa. These copies were sent one each to Makkah, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, Basrah and Kufah. One was kept in Medinah.”

Ali bin Abi Talib who succeeded Uthman was not in the shadows during his caliphate. Besides actively participating in the preservation of the Qur’an prior to his succession to the seat of caliphate he too contributed to the Qur’an in that he was the first to lay the basis for al-nahw or syntax after realising that the non-Arabs found the language difficult. For this enterprise during his tenure as caliph he commissioned an expert, Abu al-Aswad al-Dawli.[2]

Ulum al-Qur’an did not end with the age of the companions, but was rather transmitted to the following generation. This generation known as the period of the tabi’een became the direct inheritors to a tradition of knowledge traced back to the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. via the companions. This was a time when writing was already an accepted

norm and became utilised seriously hand in hand with rote memorisation. Numerous writings on the Sciences of the Qur’an were written at this age among which include Kitab al-A’dad by al-Hasan al-Basri, A’shar al-Qur’an by Qatadah bin Di’amah, Taqsim al-Qur’an by Muhammad bin al-Sayeb al-Kalbi. There were even specialised works on the reading of the Qur’an such as al-Maqtu’ wal Mausul by Abdullah bin Amir and on the revelation or tanzil such as Tanzil al-Qur’an by Muhammad bin al-Shahab al-Shukri.

Did it end in the time of the tabi’een? No, it most certainly did not. It continued on into the third generation known as the period of the tabi’ tabi’een, then into the khalaf and so on which was from the second half of the second century AH onwards. The students of knowledge and the Qur’an during this era saw the need for even more detailed scholarly discourse on the Sciences of the Qur’an which led them to expand the scope of study deeper and more detailed. From a bird’s eye view it would have seemed that their craving for knowledge was insatiable. This was the period dubbed as the golden era of Islam and the works that emerged therein can be categorised thus,

a) Treatises on specific topics

b) Books covering the various branches of Ulum al-Qur’an and treated in a comprehensive manner.

Among the early treatises include Asbab al-Nuzul by Abul Hasan Ali Bin Muhammad al-Madani and Ma Nazala min al-Qur’an fi amir al-Mu’mineen Ali by Ibrahim bin Muhammad. These treatises dealt with the reason for revelation or asbab al-nuzul and were both written in the second century AH. Later other works like Asbab al-Nuzul by Ali bin Ahmad al-Wahidi, Yatimat al-Durar fil Nuzul Ayat wal suwar by Muhammad bin Ahmad al Musali, Lubab al-Nuqul fi Asbab al-Nuzul by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti and many others became available for academia. On the i’jaz or inimitability of the Qur’an writings like Nazm al-Qur’an by Abu ‘Uthman Amr bin Bahr, Nazm al-Durar fi Tanasub al-Ayat wal suwar by Burhanuddin al-Baqa’i and others came to the fold. A copious amount of material were also dedicated to the subject of spelling of the kalimat or words in the Qur’an such as I’rab al-Qur’an by Abu Ubaydah Ma’mar bin al-Muthana,Mukhtasar i’rab al-Qur’an by al-Zujaj, I’rab al-Qur’an by al-Mubarrad, I’rab al-Qur’an by Ali bin Talhah bin Karwan, Riyadah al-Sinah fi i’rab al-Qur’an wa ma’anih by Abu Bakr al-Ansari ibn Ashtah, Imla Ma Manna bihi al-Rahman min Wujuh al-I’rab wal Qira’at fi jami’ al-Qur’an by Abu al-Baqa al-Akbari and many more. On the reading of the Qur’an writings such as Infradat al-Qurra by Ibn Shanbuz, Mukhtasar Shawaz al-Qur’an by Ibn Khalwaih and Shawaz al-Qirarat by Abu Tahir al-Bazzar became available. General and comprehensive works were also many among them include Fada’il al-Qur’an by Abu Ubayd,Funun al-Afnan fi Uyun al-Qur’an by Abd al-Rahman bin Ali Ibn al-Jawzi, Al-Murshad al-Wajiz ila Ulum tata ‘allaqu bil Kitab al-Aziz by Abu Shama Al-Maqdisi,Al-Burhan fi Ulum al-Qur’an by Ali bin Ibrahim bin Sa’id al-Hufi and many more.

As you can see the history of Islam is filled with luminous scholars who were voracious readers and intellectuals who shaped the great wealth of knowledge that we find in the Qur’anic sciences. In fact, that thirst for knowledge in the Qur’anic sciences has never been quenched! The effort or Jihad if you may stubbornly persists to this day with works like Manahil al-Irfan fi Ulum al-Qur’an by Muhammad Abdul Azim al-Zarqani, Ma’riful Qur’an by Mufti Shafi’ Uthmani, ‘Ulum al-Qur’an by Ahmad Adil Kamal, Sciences of the Qur’an by Mufti Taqi Uthmani and the list just goes on.

Those works are significant and important to our discussion in that they vividly show that the Qur’an was never ever left untouched. It has been studied, scrutinised and studied again and scrutinised again and again and again. There was not a single year throughout the 1400 long Hijri calender that the Qur’an was left unchecked or untaught. In history we call it “multiple attestation”. That means the Qur’an was looked at, studied and written by independent persons from different geographical locations and together they form the ocean-like depth of knowledge in the Sciences of the Qur’an that directly tapped into and depended on the primary source material(the Qur’an) and discussed each verse and each chapter to the letter. The books of the Sciences of the Qur’an are simply innumerable. This in itself is strong proof for the Qur’an’s reliability in terms of continuous and multiple transmission(mutawatir) throughout the ages.

A critic may say, “All right, that’s all fine. Can you now show me some primary sources for the Qur’an e.g. manuscript? Are there any?”

Yes, in fact there are a lot of manuscript evidence for the Qur’an. Arguably, the best of which is the one stored and exhibited at Topkapi Museum, Istanbul. It is dated between the late first century to the early second century. What is amazing about this manuscript evidence is that it uses vowel marks that follows the method of Abu al-Aswad al-Du’ali the expert commissioned by the caliph Ali himself as mentioned earlier. The manuscript contain exactly 408 folios covering all the verses of the Qur’an with an exception of a few because of the missing of two folios. The missing verses include verses 3 to 8 from Surah al-Ma’idah, verses 17-33 from Surah al-Isra’ and that’s it. Other manuscripts are found at Tashkent, Uzbekistan from the second century, however the dates generated by the radiometric method does not exclude the possibility of it being a manuscript from the Caliph Uthman’s time. We also have the manuscript of which its major portion is found at St. Petesburg(E 20) and others scattered in Katta Langar, Tashkent and Bukhara. Then there’s the San’a manuscripts found in San’a, Yemen. And there are many more(a lot more!) from different parts of the world some owned and exhibited at museums while others are owned by private collectors.

At this point in time it is necessary to mention that the mode of preservation of the Qur’an was and is not restricted to writing, but rather included hifz or memorisation. In fact, this was the primary method by which the Qur’an was preserved. Previous to writing the Qur’an(which was permitted later by the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. in the early period of his prophethood) the Muslims with the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. memorised the Qur’an word by word. Even when the Qur’an was disseminated in written form the tradition of memorisation continued unimpeded. This means that even if you were to throw all the Qur’an printed or hand written into the ocean in less than three days we can compile it again by bringing a few brothers who have memorised it from beginning to end. Among the companions who memorised the Qur’an were Abdullah bin Mas’ud, Abdullah bin Mas’ud, Abu Darda, Mu’adh bin Jabal, Zayd bin Thabit, Abu Zayd, Salim, Ubay bin Ka’ab, the 70 memorisers who were martyred at Bir Ma’unah, Umar bin al-Khattab, Uthman bin Affan, Ali bin Abi Talib, Hudhayfah, Abu Hurayrah, Abdullah al-Sayeb, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Abdullah bin Umar, Abdullah bin al-Zubayr, Abdullah bin Abbas, Ubadah bin Samit, Fuzalah bin Ubayd, Muslimah bin Mukhallad and Mama’ bin Jariyah.[3] Even today this tradition lives on for all to see. There are virtually millions of people today who know the Qur’an from cover to cover by heart. I personally know dozens of fellow students and teachers who have memorised the Qur’an. Imagine if today which is called the ‘information era’ people can still find the time to memorise more than 6000 verses of the Qur’an such a feat would have been less(much less) difficult 1400 years ago especially given the dedication of the early believers to the religion having known the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. himself and all that. The fact that the Qur’an has been memorised time and again via successive chains of transmission throughout the world traced back to the Prophet s.a.w. (this is called isnad) should give us a good picture how carefully the Qur’an has been preserved. This phenomenon is in fulfillment of Allah’s promise in the Qur’an,

“We have made the Qur’an easy to remember” (54:22)

Chris Horrie and Peter Chippindale note that,

“…it has now almost certainly become the most widely read and memorised book in the world.

…Learning large part of the Qur’an by heart is an important part of Muslim religious devotion and children start memorising it at an early age. In many Muslim countries learning the Qur’an by heart forms the basic curriculum of primary school education. Muslims who memorise its contents in their entirety are given the honourable title al-hafiz.” [4]

A critic may further ask, “What about the variants?”

The subject of variants is exactly islamoscope’s contention in his/her article mentioned earlier. As an opening to his article he says,

“I have found in my dialogue with Muslims is that they absolutely detest the idea of textual variants in Quranic manuscript.”

Talking to Muslims selling fish in the market does not count. That’s just a joke. Let us give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he has had the opportunity to converse with educated Muslims. I would like to know from him if he’s willing to share the names of the scholars he has spoken to or tried to speak to on this very subject(if there were any). In any case, this attitude or approach which is orientalistic in nature is not something new. Th critics or detractors of Islam have been at it since John of Damascus(750 CE). They have time and again tried to dismantle the Qur’an from various different angles and tactics. Early polemicists after John of Damascus (of whom you can read about here) included Abbot of Cluny, Peter the Venerable, Philip Melanchthon and even Martin Luther. The Qur’an early appearance in Europe by the hands of Andre du Ryer in his French translation L’Alcoran de Mohamet in 1647; Solomon Schweigger in German called Alcoranus Mahumeticus, das ist: der Turcken Alcoran, Religion und Aberglauben in 1616 just five years after the publication of the KJV; Alexander Ross in the first English translation called The Alcoran of Mahomet in 1648 just one year after du Ryer’s. The interest and sometimes even bordering on obsession of Orientalists on the Qur’an became quite evident with Theodor Noldeke’s Geschichte des Qoranus in 1860 which aimed at dating not just each chapter but also each verse of the Qur’an! Prior to that Gustav Flugel published the Qur’an with a new numbering system of his own called Corani texti Arabicus. Around 1937 to 1939 Richard Bell came to the fold and presumably basing his postulations on “scientific criteria” he published a rearranged version of the Qur’an in Edinburgh, Scotland. His work however did not gain much interest in the wider academic world. Enter Arthur Jeffrey and Otto Pretzl! These two and their cohorts tried to reassemble the Qur’an and come up with a new so called “critical text” of the Qur’an based on around 40 000 bits of Qur’anic fragments. Guess what happened to their courageous enterprise? It literally went up in flames! It was all destroyed during a bombing on Munich in World War 2. This mania if I may describe the phenomenon as such became even more fascinating and honestly downright silly with John Wansborough and his mates from the London School of Oriental and African Studies who produced the book Qur’anic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation which then brought forth others like Michael Cook and Patricia Crone into the picture who proposed the following,

1) The Qur’an did not exist in the 7th century and only came about at the end of it. That is to say the Qur’an did not exist in the Prophet Muhammad’s s.a.w. time.

2) Mecca was never the centre of the Islamic world

3) Arab imperialism and conquest started even before Islam

4) The hijrah did not exist

5) The early Muslims did not call themselves Muslims

These notions were reached by totally omitting all the Muslim sources for Muslim history. You know, that would be like writing Roman history without Roman sources. Can you imagnie that? Can you imagine writing Egyptian history without Egyptian sources? Thank God the sane world has not taken these scholars(if you can even call them that) seriously. They have all been laughed off the stage by academia especially Patricia Crone with her extreme thoughts on Islam. As a reaction to these pathological behaviour against the Qur’an by Orientalists Parvez Mansoor rightly remarks,

“Rarely, if ever, the sacred script of a world religion has been treated with so much “pathological anomosity”.”

However, it’s not all bleak and grim that we see in the world of Orientalism. Despite the seemingly prevalent anti-Islamic sentiments emitting from their ranks there are those that do try to actually understand the Qur’an instead of trying to dismember it. Among them include Neal Robinson in his Discovering Qur’an who actually embraced Islam during his research.

There are some truly dubious propaganda circulating around suggesting that the Catholic church instructed a band of people to create the Qur’an or that a group of heretical Christians came together and composed what we now know as the Qur’an. These are feeble attempts to undermine the credibility of the Qur’an that are in fact hot air. The Qur’an was not revealed mysteriously and in secret and that later a band of unknown people gathered together and assembled a copy and disseminated it around the world so that Muslims believe in a faked Qur’an or a Qur’an that is filled with problems like “variants”. Such conspiracy theories do not stand in light of history.

“The Qur’an is undenibly unique in this tradition, and indeed unique in the entire context of classical sacred tradition throughout the world, in having been revealed in the light of history, through the offices of a Prophet who was well known.” [5]

There are some who try to argue that the Qur’an was only collected and written down after the time of the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. and this affects the reliability of the text that have been passed down to us.

The scholar Syed Muzafaruddin Nadwi refutes this allegation,

“Some Orientalists, who have translated the Qur’an or written anything concerning it, have asserted that the verses and chapters of the Qur’an remained scattered and disjoinned during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet, and that they were collected after his death on the authority of the vebal evidences of the Companions, and hence its genuineness is liable to question. This assertion only serves to betray the ignorance of those who make it. It is an untruth to say that the verses and chapters of the Qur’an were collected after the Prophet’s death, for there is strong historical evidence to prove that all verses of the Qur’an were collected and all the surahs(chapters) named by the direct instruction of he Prophet himself.” [6]

A Critic may further ask, “But what about people like Prof. James A. Bellamy who says,

“These variants, however – I have counted more than two-hundred that make a difference in the meaning – are important in that they tell us there was no solid oral tradition stemming directly from the prophet to prove which variant was correct”

That’s the source that islamoscope appeals to. What I would like to see are some supporting scholarship. Who else agrees with this? In fact, let us look at the words of Sir William Muir who was a Christin preacher from Oxford University who says,

“The recension of ‘Uthman has been handed down to us unaltered. So carefully, indeed, has it been preserved, that there are no variations of importance, – we might almost say no variations at all, – amongst the innumerable copies of the Koran scattered throughout the vast bounds of empire of Islam. Contending and embittered factions, taking their rise in the murder of ‘Uthman himself within a quarter of a century from the death of Muhammad have ever since rent the Muslim world. Yet but one Koran has always been current amongst them…. There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text.” [7]

Adrian Brockett says regarding the preservation of the Qur’an via both memorisation and writing,

“There can be no denying that some of the formal characteristics of the Qur’an point to the oral side and others to the written side, but neither was as a whole, primary. There is therefore no need to make different categories for vocal and graphic differences between transmissions. Muslims have not. The letter is not a dead skeleton to be refleshed, but is a manifestation of the spirit alive from beginning. The transmission of the Qur’an has always been oral, just as it has been written.” [8]

He also says,

“Thus, if the Qur’an had been transmitted only orally for the first century, sizeable variations between texts such as are seen in the hadith and pre-Islamic poetry would be found, and if it had been transmitted only in writing, sizeable variations such as in the different transmissions of the original document of the constitution of Medina would be found. But neither is the case with the Qur’an. There must have been a parallel written transmission limiting variation in the oral transmission to the graphic form, side by side with a parallel oral transmission preserving the written transmission from corruption.” [9] (emphasis added)

Consider the following also,

“The simple fact is that none of the differences, whether vocal or graphic, between the transmission of Hafs and the transmission of Warsh has any great effect on the meaning. Many are the differences which do not change the meaning at all, and the rest are differences with an effect on the meaning in the immediate context of the text itself, but without any significant wider influence on Muslim thought” [10]

Bernard Lewis who was a writer, critic, historian and Orientalist says about the Qur’an,

“From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. “Traditional science”, as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.” [11]

Is there any more doubt? Let us consider the words of my professor, Assoc. Prof. Dr. Israr Ahmad Khan from the Department of Qur’an and Sunnah, International Islamic University of Malaysia,

“But the Qur’an was neither lost and retrieved later, nor was it tampered with and manipulated. Almost fifteen centuries have elapsed since it was received by the Prophet to be delivered to mankin. Thi period is more than enough to cause a documet to be easily subjected to changes. History serves as a merciless agent of information, hiding nothing of what takes place in time and space. Had the Qur’an been altered or prepared in more than one version, it would have been on record. What is historically established is the availability of the Qur’an in one single version from the 7th century until today. The Qur’an has withstood the test of the time.

Munich University in Germany, at the turn of the current century, embarked on an extensive research project on the reliability of the Qur’an. A large team was involved in obtaining almost all the editions ever published anywhere in the world, including the oldest copy of the Qur’an said to have been used by the third Islamic leader ‘Uthman B. Affan, which was available in the Taskqand library in Uzbekistan. The researchers vetted and tallied the copies with each other and compared them with the oldest one. Their findings were remarkable. The conclusion reached was that no changes ever occured in the Qur’an and the presently available Qur’an is exactly the same as the oldest extant copy.” [12] (emphasis added)

Finally, let us have a look at Bruce Lawrence’s words on this issue,

“Through complex process, the recitations that had been revealed in verses and chapters became over time a book. After the death of the Prophet Muhammad, ‘Ali, his close relative and supporter, worked with others to compile them into a written text. Then twenty years later, during the rule of ‘Uthman, the third Caliph or Successor to Muhammad (after Abu Bakr and ‘Umar but before ‘Ali), all extant versions were arranged into one ‘standard’ version. This version persists substantially unchanged to the present day.” [13] (emphasis added)

In conclusion, the Qur’an has been thoroughly and completely preserved and remains to this day in its pristine purity. We repeat Allah’s saying,

It is We Who have sent down the Reminder (Qur’an) and We Who will preserve it. (al-Qur’an 15:9)

References:

[1] Prof. Dr. H. Mahmud Yunus. Tafsir Quran Karim(1957). p. 369

[2] Ibn al-Nadim. Al-Fihrist(1997). Beirut: Dar al-Ma’rifah. p. 61

[3] Ibn Hisham. Al-Sirat Al-Nabawiyyah. Beirut: Dar al-Ma’rifah. Vol. 1 and 2, p. 314-315. Muhammad bin Isma’il Bukhari. al-Jami’ al-Sahih. Vol. 3, Kitab al-Tafsir, hadith 4582. Ibid. Kitab Faza’il al-Qur’an, hadith 5004. Ibid. hadith 4999. Ibid. Kitab al-Maghazi, hadith 4088. Ibid. hadith 4078. Ibid. Kitab Faza’il al-Qur’an, hadith 4986. Manna al-Qu’attan. Mabahith fi ‘ulum al-Qur’an. Riyadh. p. 122

[4] Chris Horrie, Peter Chippindale. What is Islam?(1997). London, England: Virgin Publishing Ltd. p. 18

[5] Thomas Cleary. The Essential Koran. HarperOne. p. IX

[6] Syed Muzaffaruddin Nadwi. A Geographical History of the Qur’an(2009). Selangor, Malaysia: Islamic Book Trust. p. 16

[7] William Muir. The Life of Mohammad(1912). Edinburgh. p. xxii-xxiii

[8] Andrew Rippin. Approaches of the History of Interpretation of the Qur’an(1988). Oxford: Clarendon Press. p. 34

[9] Ibid. p. 44

[10] Ibid. p. 37

[11] Bernard Lewis. Islam in History(1993). Open Court Publishing. p. 104-105

[12] Israr Ahmad Khan. Qur’anic Studies An Introduction(2000). Kuala Lumpur: Zaman Islam Media. p. 14

[13] Bruce Lawrence. The Qur’an, A Biography(2006). Great Britain: Atlantis Books. p. 6

 

Other references:

Aijazul Qur’an by Dr. Rafiq Ahmad

Islam & The Qur’an an Introduction by Murad Hofmann

www.islamic-awareness.org

 

Recommended reading:

The Story of the Qur’an. Its History and place in Muslim Life by Ingrid Mattson.

*The article will be updated from time to time.

Incoming search terms:

  • reliability of the quran
  • reference for Prof H Mahmud yunus
Both comments and pings are currently closed.

88 Responses to “Preservation and Reliability of the Qur’an”

  1. ARMY OF JESUS IS ISLAM says:

    First i would like to begin by thanking Allah then brother Ibn Anwar! for responding to this allegation against our Pure Nobel Quran, against these Islamaphobes. By the grace of Allah this will be a start to silence those who challenge the Preserved book. Our book is not like
    (islamoscope Bible): with major variants not minor words that can still mean the same thing like the one islamoscope tried to attribute! I saw no variants as it could still refer to the same identity such as: “he saves us.” and the other five ‘njytn’ (anjay- tana) “you (sg.) save us. Still referring to the same identity Allah. Not changing the message at ALL!

    On the other hand this is some example of real variants in scripture such as the Bible: Added words and deleted words, which give a complete different meaning to text, some example are as follows;

    Acts 22:9 (New King James Version) 9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid,[a] but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.

    Acts 22:9 (New International Version)9”My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

    Notice: how the word (Afraid) has been taken out in the NIV?

    More example:
    Lk. 22:70
    KJV Then they said, “Are you the son of God? He said unto them, “You say that I am.”
    NIV They all asked, “Are you the son of God, he said, “you are right in saying I am.”
    LBV They all shouted, “Then you claim you are the son of God? And he
    replied, YES I AM.

    More examples:
    King James Version Acts 3:26 – Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    New King James Version
    Acts 3:26 – To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.

    Another examples:
    whole complete verses once present in KJV deleted from NIV Bible: Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believes with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Some more examples:
    (1 john 5:7 (kjv)For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

    1 John 5:7 (New International Version)
    6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

    I can share over 50+ more verse but its not necessary for the time being. You will never see this kind of variants in the Nobel Quran! And these Islamphobes want to compare!

    • Tim says:

      It’s literally impossible to get a perfect “word for word” translation from the Greek or Hebrew language to the English language. There are going to be differences in word structure and sound through the translation process. We can go on in circles about this topic. I believe that’s why most serious Muslums only will read the Quaran in Arabic.

      Instead, why don’t you try to disprove the fact that over 500 eyewitnesses saw the resurrected Christ. The 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written by eyewitnesses of Jesus’s life or recieved info directly from eyewitnesses. Jesus’s death on the cross is documented in historical manuscripts outside the NT (Tacitus and Josephus) to name a couple.

      People don’t need the authority of the Bible to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and through Him is total forgiveness of sins and eternal life, even though the Bible does provide this authority.

      You are taking the above Bible verses completely out of context. You can’t disprove the authenticity of the Bible by quoting single verses, unless those verse are drastically changed ( which they are clearly not ). You must look at verses in context to prior and later verses to see if the meaning is intact. For example: in Luke 22:70 – no matter NIV or KJV – the following verses show the high Jewish priest condemning Christ to death because he claimed to be the Christ.

      Any how, my point is not to prove every verse you quoted out of context. My point is, the real issue:

      How can you stand before a holy and perfect God witoout being holy and perfect yourself? Why would He let you into His presense and Heaven while you are stained with a sinful nature to do evil. Which all of us relate too?

      Jesus Christ offers Himself to you as the full payment for all your sins ever committed. Through Him you recieve a new heart and God see’s His righteousness in You, so that you can enter into His presense only by His grace and mercy – never by our own merit.

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        All of the points you’ve brought up are addressed in the following articles:

        Anonymity of the Gospels:
        http://unveiling-christianity......r-gospels/

        Crucifixion of Jesus(eyewitnesses and tacitus and josephus)
        http://unveiling-christianity......ucifixion/

      • abu ismail jaafar says:

        Tim,

        You stand before a holy and perfect God by that very God’s permission and forgiveness, through Submission (Islam) to the Infinite Love and Mercy which He
        prescribed to Himself to give to His creatures, as revealed to His Beloved Apostle, Prophet Muhammad, salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam:

        Say: ‘O My servants who have transgressed against your own souls:
        do not despair of God’s mercy,
        for God forgives all sins.
        It is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.’

        Qur’an (39:53)

        This Love and Mercy of Allah to his willing creation is greater than the
        love that any mother- or any supposedly divine father- has for her child, especially since this Love is given to any sincere person who submits, without requiring flesh or blood:
        …It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him…

        Qur’an (22:37)

  2. zayed says:

    asalmwalaikum

    hey dear brother i have a serious problem which needs to be dealt with…although i tied using you answers with them
    But look what they are saying….they say that our arguments are poor compared to theirs…we are red hearings(means we try to diverse topics)…most of their blogs are all about suicide bombings, terror attacks , Muslim man raping others , forced marriages , hijacking British prisons , and many many others…I tried to use brothers ibn anwars answers with them but they are saying that brother ibn anwar is using others opinion and that is not the way how to argue because there are many critics opinions could be used which says the Quran has different meanings?…and says that our argument is illogical compared to theirs…I have given a comment in their site I don’t know what will be the reply…And I don’t how to reply back and went saying “don’t loose your head there are thousands of different readings” I don’t know what to say next please help me
    they also have a topic called myths of islam which is attacking my eman…please help me

    • Haman says:

      i hope you see the truth…whatever islamscope said i hope it helps you out from this problem…i think you are already seeing the truth which is (YOU KNOW WHAT)…i can’t say because the webmaster refuted me and bcame so arrogant that if i say something he’ll start barking

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      I don’t understand why you go to their website to begin with…if you read the contents of this site carefully you will see that I have shown that Muslims do not have a monopoly in wrongdoing in the world. In fact, most of the wrongdoings in the world including the credit crunch problems that have caused the livelihoods of millions stem from NON-MUSLIMS’ actions. What authors’ views say that the Qur’an is not perfect as the Muslims claim? I have shown in the article above that even critics of the Qur’an concede the fact that the Qur’an has been meticulously preserved. What thousands of different readings? Please go to http://www.islamic-awareness.org for clarification on the issue.

    • Captain Planet says:

      My advice you to is not to get yourself involved in such discussions when you admit knowing little or nothing about the issues. At this stage you should only read scholarly books and increase your knowledge. Once you know the basics, you can then engage in discussions with others.

      But since you know next to nothing about a number of issues, such as the Quran and its readings, why on earth are you trying to get into a discussion with others about it? It makes no sense. It will only confuse you further…

  3. zayed says:

    i did a small mistake becase of mistyping , they went on saying “don’t let them loose your head coz there are thousands of different readings”

  4. Ar198 says:

    I don’t see any mention of the “Sana’a manuscripts” that were found… which from what I’ve heard and read has variant readings and mixed matched verses…

    • Zayed Ahmed says:

      i think u will find useful information in here
      http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

    • Captain Planet says:

      There are no “mixed matched” verses in any of the Sanaa mss. The surah order, I think in one ms, differs, though the order of the verses within the surahs is exactly the same in all Sanaa (and non-sanaa) mss.

      In one sanaa ms, Palimpset INV 1.27.1, the under text is basically the same as the current text of the verses in question, with no significant differences. The readings in the undertext are traced to Ibn Masud and are also mentioned in Islamic traditions.

      Muslims are permitted to recite the Quran in any order and partial copies can be written in any order.

      The Sanaa mss affirm the textual integrity of the Quranic text from the earliest times, as has been said by Neuwirth, Schoeler and Puin (in his public letter) (one can also mention Deroche and Bothmer here).

      Three mss from the Sanaa, consisting of multiple folios, are from the 1st Islamic century.

      Besides the Sanaa, we also have old Hijazi manuscripts, which are also placed in the 1st Islamic century, and manuscripts such as Arabe 328a (56 folios) and the The “Damascus Umayyad Qur’ān” TIEM ŞE 321 (33 folios) are also from the 1st Islamic century.

      Besides unintentional scribal errors, none contain deliberate alterations or differences which affect the meanings of the text. No different text form can be seen in any of the mss.

      islamic-awareness.org has info on all these mss.

  5. Haman says:

    Hey checkmate….
    there is a new problem with the quran i don’t know if u r aware of it or not….wellllll the problem is that the quran is outdated! in the quran allllllaah says that he created horse mules and donkeys for transportation as his signs…i don’t know which century you live in but i live in 21st century and here we do not use donkeys mules horses or camels but instead we use far better than that which is cars , airplanes etc.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      Why are you repeating the same thing that I have refuted in the article on you? Don’t you have anything more worth while to do than act like a broken record?

    • KZ says:

      Haman, please stop criticising Ibn Anwar for he was just trying to refute your points.

      I hope you can be more respectful of other people’s faith and stick to a more constructive discussion. The refutations to your points were meant to help you and those who read it.

      I also hope that you would stop being so hateful of Islam and instead try to understand it without the prejudice.

      Prejudice can reduce our ability to see and understand properly.

    • ARMY OF JESUS IS ISLAM says:

      My Reponses is to haman:
      I guess the horses are not used in daily transportation around the world, hmmm.. So what do horses and donkeys do? ahh i guess they have lost there jobs? maybe the financial crises ? oh boy there now stuck grazing with the cows?

      You silly stupid haman, bring a real argument. When Allah says he has Created the horses for transportation this means to our benefit for thousands of years, in fact people in some countries still use these things now, the only out dated mechanism is your God given brain, Allah draws the intention to the Creature it self, and what a wonderful design of the horse which accommodated for centuries. Not polluting and damaging the environment so the only mechanism, the car maybe be more advanced but maybe the reason for God not giving us these tools is due to the harmful effect effects to the environment man is ever quarrel some and un thank full, and man is very arrogant and cruel to the environment.

      So Allahs creation the horse is definitely more humanitarian environmentally what a wonderful design and a beauty may Allah open the chest of haman..to the truth..

      And by the way haman? Did you think about the brain Allah created for a sign to build the car and airplane? Or is that brain Allah which Allah gave also outdated seems like your one is?

  6. Haman says:

    hey mr army of jesus……i would like to tell you something politely..you said:

    “You silly stupid haman, bring a real argument. When Allah says he has Created the horses for transportation this means to our benefit for thousands of years”

    i would like to tell how do u know that it is talking about the thousands of years it benefited us…where is it written?
    And which thousands of year are you talking about…thousand years before muhammad or thousand years after muhammad?
    And countries which still uses them are only for minor transportation not for major transportation… ?

    and anyway you put the nail on your own head when you said that allah is talking about the benefit which we got for thousands of years…which means the god’s signs has outdated coz it is talking about the signs which is of no use to us now?

    ironically bible has nothing which looks to me outdated unlike the quran?

    • ARMY OF JESUS IS ISLAM says:

      MY RESPONSE TO MR HAMAN:

      Your argument is irrelevant for the Quran to mention specifically transportation for Horses prior to Muhammed(saw) or after him is irrelevant. It could be either as the Quran is also a book of historical statements mentioning events that took place before Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and after. But see we understand how desperate you are in trying to disprove the Quran, to tell you the truth your argument is very straw man. Built on assumptions and thank you for admitting that since we still do use horses in some countries proves they are still in use and not out dated. Also to mention Mr haman did you know for example: that experts even admit that the use of Camels for transportation in the desert terrain areas is far more sufficient then to use 4 wheel drives as they do have lots of trouble being bogged in the sand? Some animals do have better capabilities and more endurance then manufactured vehicles in some cases.

      HAMAN also made a dreadful mistake by claiming his Bible is not out dated? Really MR Haman nothing out dated in the bible?

      Number 1: Punishment laws such as adultery OUT DATED.
      “And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 21:9)”

      Deuteronomy 22:22 “If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.”

      Number 2: LAW FOR COVERING THE HAIR OUT DATED
      Paul in (1 Corinthians 11:5-15) saw fit that covering the hair for women was out dated in bible law so he declared that women should not veil there hair in verse 15.

      Number 3: THE LAW OF PIG HAS BEEN OUTDATED.
      (Leviticus 11:7-8)”And the swine, though he divided the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.”Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.”
      ACCORDING TO CHRISTIANS THIS ABOVE LAW IS OUT DATED and It amazes me how the polytheist trinitarian pagan christians are the world’s biggest consumers of pork meat!
      Talk about respecting GOD Almighty and obeying His Divine Will!

      Number 4: A woman suspected or accused of adultery is to be tested by drinking the ‘WATER OF BITTERNESS’ mixed with ‘DUST’ from the floor if she is, her ‘BELLY & GLANDS’ will come out (Numbers 5:12-31).
      Mr Haman i dont know what world your bible is living in but we are in the age of Science with medical examination methods. People dont need to eat the dust of the earth.

      Number 5: Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
      MR Haman: i guess the out dated verse above was the very same reason why the church Murded Galilaio in proving the bible out dated when it mentioned the earth has corners.

      Number 6: (King james version)2 Maccabees 15:39 For as it is hurtful to drink wine or water alone; and as wine mingled with water is pleasant, and delighteth the taste: even so speech finely framed delighteth the ears of them that read the story. And here shall be an end.

      HAMAN THE BIBLE IS VERY OUT DATED NO MODERN DOCTOR WILL EVER TELL YOU THAT DRINKING WATER ON ITS OWN IS HURTFUL BUT VERY BENEFICIAL TO THE HUMAN BODY.

      I could mention thousands of more things that are OUTDATED in Bible, even according to Christians themselves BIBLE laws are out dated and according to Christians secular law human law must be enforced as Gods laws in bible have been outdated.
      That is why not a single Christian country runs there nation by the law of the bible, but promote secular law instead, Bible loving learned Christians admit these facts i have met thousands in fact on the contrary you go speak to majority of the Muslims learned people they will always say we want (shariah) Allah’s law over man made laws unlike Christians. However Muslims all over world are trying to set up shariah law, Saudi Arabia is properly the closest to shariah law even though its no where near 100% but hopefully in the near future we will get there.
      ” And its Christians them selves who say we don’t need to follow the old covenant we have the new covenant the(NEW TESTEMENT)that in its self has just bear witness that the old law has been out dated. HAVING A NEW LAW MEANS THE OLD IS OUT DATED AND NO LONGER IN USE THAT IN ITS SELF SPEAKS VOLUMES, (MR HAMAN) See when you go to the Quran to bring a silly argument it just back fired beyond backfires in your face, YOU HAVE NOW BEEN DEBUNKED AT UNVIELING-CHRISTINITY.

      • Haman says:

        man learn some manners….y do u always bark when u speak…can’t u speak politely and slowly…as for the shariah..it says the hands of the theif to be cut offf….now who the hell will do that…doesn’t it looks outdated because (i don’t know which century u live in but i live in 21st century)in this century it is not compitatable…if someones hand is cutoff then how will he live?

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        yea sure Haman..manners huh? and that coming from someone who wrote this,
        “Whatever u say….and whatever u do….u can’t save yourselves!And i am not saying this..it is a fact
        first of all israel is kicking you sexual perverted muslims from their place and i love that so much…coz whenever a muslim nation suffers that day becomes a memorial for me…i don’t feel like talking with u perverts coz i hate u… did u hear about the recent controversies about sarkozy the french president banning that burqa…well this is just the beginnig…this is just the trailer and the movie is still about to release…and anyway i think sarkozy is stupid because instead of banning burqa i think he should banned ISLAM…and anyway i think u r malaysian then why do u follow a religion bought by an arab!That is one of the reoson why i am not accepting islam…Islam only suits arabs…not malaysians!And how can u trust an arab prophet coz arabs are racist , terrorists , sexual perverts , liars , hypocrits and all the bad names of this world! Muslims reputation is about to get over so ENJOY”

        what a hypocritical twit lol

  7. Captain Planet says:

    Ibn Anwar,

    what you need to do is start deleting Hamman’s abusive comments. You are just wasting time responding to him. Just do this: delete the abusive comments he posted previously and ban him permanently.

    Allow people to post comments only as long as they are polite and well mannered. Those who cannot behave need to be banned for good.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      Thank you for your suggestion. I have blacklisted his ip so that every time he comments the system will automatically send it to spam. As for banning him from the site all together..well, I have no idea how to do that lol.

  8. ARMY OF JESUS IS ISLAM says:

    Notice how MR Haman the christian could not respond to the outdated bible? rather he started playing the victim and then brought another silly argument claiming the method of punishment is out dated in the Quran in regards to theft? Its interesting that the only people who actually fear shariah and its punishment are the criminals who know’s maybe Mr Haman is one of them? Lets refute his claim” he said that cutting one’s hand off as prescribed punishment in the Quran is out dated since we live in the 21st centaury?…Hmmm

    So what is the 21st centaury punishment for theft, according to western law? well it all depends on the level of crime, so for example if lets say someone robbed a bank and he was caught taking thousands or lets say it was government fraud stealing millions from the share market as it often happened’s you could be imprisoned for maybe 10 years and get out with in 6. But hey! that sounds like a good deal after all? If you get caught you will just be playing table tennis in prision for the next 6 years not much of a risk there after all hey?
    If you get away with it you’re a million air doesn’t sound like a bad deal after all does it? Or if the crime is minor theft and if its your first offence in most western countries its normally a slap on the wrist (meaning you go Scot free). So what stops the criminal from striking again? not much so long as he doesn’t get caught twice he just keeps going knowing that he will just get a slap on the wrist for first offence since there is no punishment. And that is why the western countries are suffering from the greatest amount of criminal activity due to punishment being very weak giving criminals opportunity to go ahead with the criminal activity knowing the punishment is very light that is why criminals repeat offence knowing the consequences are not a big deal, and because of this people in the west will continue to live in fear especially the next time they walk down the street because some thug will attack around the corner which could even lead to death.
    Let’s now look at some western theft stats: from United States Crime Rates 1960 – 2007

    Year: 1960 Number of thefts in united states: 1,855,400
    1978 Number of thefts in united states: 5,991,000
    2007 Number of thefts in united states: 6,568,572
    Proof: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

    The Above evidence clearly shows that the western 21st centaury justice system has failed to reduce the amount of theft and over the course of the years criminal activity is continuing to sky rocket thanks to secular man made laws. So let me ask you the question if we implemented the shariah what would be the stats result would they decrees, remain the same, or increase?
    Of course it would decrees its a practical law if you implement the shariah you get results. So when you criticize Islamic Justice system you shoot yourself in the foot yet again Mr Haman first take a good hard look at the 21st centaury western results, In-fact here is another static to show you how your western law has failed your society:

    On June 30, 2008 – 2,310,984 prisoners were held in federal or state prisons or in local jails – an increase of 0.8% from yearend 2007, less than the average annual growth of 2.4% from 2000-2007.

    The American state prison population.
    -1980: 190,000
    -2005: 700,000
    proof: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/corrtyp.htm

    Notice as Mr Haman and his western laws are becoming advanced with our modern western law its failing him every time. You would think with modern law we would decrease the number of criminal activates yet it increases every year which is a fact. This is why Allah’s law the Shariah which you claim is backwards will never fail to decrease those numbers dramatically if only they implemented it, it would without a doubt make society a better safer place to live in. So I will just let the stats speak for them selves.

    But hey im not finished with Mr haman the Christian yet, lets bring his bible back to the table, lets have fun i wonder if Mr Haman would use the same standard to his own bible for cutting hands? It amazes me how this polytheist Christian has a problem with a hand of a criminal being cut yet he doesn’t have a problem with a innocent women’s hand being chopped in the bible for simply defending her husband!!!

    Lets read: Deuteronomy 25:11-12 “If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.” This doesn’t make any sense what so ever! Why should the woman get her hands cut off for defending her husband? It’s not like she was cheating on him or anything like that!

    2nd verse, Directly from Jesus: CUT HAND THAT SIN!!
    Matthew 18:7-9 (New International Version)7″Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

    MR Haman the Christian? do you care to respond to both verses or any other Christian? or will use now admit that Jesus teachings are out dated? or will you now run and burn yourself like this Christian German bishop over the growth of Islam and the truth of Islam?
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t.....623634.ece

  9. Zayed Ahmed says:

    asalamwalaikum wr wb

    dear brothers in islam (including ibn anwar , ibn saad , mushfiq , abdul qadar and army of jesus is islam,) although i don’t know u personally)

    one will undoubtedly claim with me that Haman is the new international version or the revise standard version of sam shamoun

  10. Bozaki says:

    Thank you for this very great article. I am really interested in history of quran. It is rare to see a documentary or anything that describe the true history of quran with great evidence. Most of internet site only provoking and prejudice to muslim but keep calling themselves smart and full of knowledge.

    I am really excited reading this article.

    Well done.

  11. Zayed Ahmed says:

    Asalamwalaikum

    Dear brothers

    I have a confusion regarding few verses in the Koran where Allah says that he created the universe in six days and in another verse he says that he just needs to say “be” and it is…isn’t that a collision because he could create the universe by saying “be” then why it took god to create the universe six days (where as 1 human year is equal to 1000 years of Allah, does this mean that it took Allah to create he universe 6000 years)?

    And there are some verses in the Koran where it says that god created horses , mules , donkeys and camels for riding and that is sign to mankind…but doesn’t that look outdated coz we don’t use them anymore?

    And my last confusion is that we are taught that during isra al miraj our prophet peace be upon him saw sinners burning in hell…but in Islam teaches us that when someone dies he is interrogated in the grave and he is raised in the heaven to show his future abode whether paradise or hell and then he returns to the grave to stay till the last day occurs(I learned from http://www.islamreligion.com )…then how can our prophet peace and blessing be upon see sinners burning in hell when they are supposed to be in the grave till the last day occurs…now isn’t that a contradiction?

    I hope you understand my position and take a few time out for me to answer my questions…May Allah guide us…AMEEN

    Your brother in Islam

    Ahmed Zayed

  12. Zayed Ahmed says:

    and i have asked the second question which is about horses and mules although you have answered them before coz i still think that mr haman’s accusation is much more stronger thanyour rebuttal on this issue…so if have any new answer please tell me

  13. ARMY OF JESUS IS ISALM says:

    My letter of concern is in regards top this indevidual, (zayed Ahmed) he is the same person who had nick name just (ZAYED) ABOVE!! Brother ibn anwar please get this mischief makers accusations for this page, he has caused fitnah, and we refuted this. This indervidiual zayed could be a KAFIR, He cant even prenounce(asalmwalaikum)

    Please ibn anwar im sure that this person is from there side, trying to assert that the Christians are winning. We have refuted all there points clearly.

    Zayed you hypocrite you have been exposed with your last statement. All those points about so called contradictions have been refuted. IBn anwar brother if you dont cancell and ban zayed from this page. I will have nothing to do at thios web site ahki.
    Cancell his posts and ban this hypocriet Munafik !!!

    • Zayed Ahmed says:

      dear brothe asalawalaikum
      you are mistaken…i wrote zayed just because i was a bit busy and out of time due to some work so i just wrote zayed there and i was foolish not to think that i could have written my comment later…so that was my mistake…and if am a christian then tell me why would i praise ibn anwars articles…and then why would i made fun out of haman when he was against islam…then why would i write against christianity when some christians were giving silly comments…why don’t u ask ibn anwar…the only point which i still have is the issue of horses and mules…i know ibn anwar gave an answer but i was not satisfied with his answer so i told him to give another idea bout this issue…and as for the asalamwalaikum…how you write that doesn’t matter…at least i say…thats what i was taught..u don’t even say it…
      may allah guide us

  14. Ryan says:

    The question regarding hell. Allah (swt) let Muhammad (sws) see the inhabitants of hellfire prior to the day when people will actually fill it. He let Muhammad (sws) see an event which will take place in the future. It was a prophecy given to Muhammad (sws) from Allah (swt). And as you know prophecies from Allah swt are true events which will take place in the future not in the current present. Thats the whole point of prophecies, and wether ur christian or jew this is something that them all believe in. So to use that as an argument is rather silly. And ur 2nd question regarding the horses and mules etc etc. Their creation will remain a sign to mankind until the day of judgement. The way they can benefit and provide for mankind and even their beauty is a sign for mankind to ponder about. Can these animals with such great abilities and beauty come from nothing? Of course not, and therefore they are and will remain a sign for mankind of the power of Allah (swt). You will even see Allah (swt) mentioning the creation of mosquitos/flies in the Quran and He tells mankind to ponder about their creation. At first point it seems like a simple creature, but if u look at it closely and study the mosquito or the fly you will see that they contains amazing qualities and one thing that is so great about these creatures is that mankind will never be able to create even a fly from nothing, that truly shows the power of Allah (swt). That in itself and all the other qualities which i have not even began to mention is and will always be a sign for mankind to ponder about.

  15. Ryan says:

    And ur question regarding Allah swt creating the universe in 6 days/periods and comparing that to “Be” and “It is”, there is NO contradiction there. The creation of the universe did NOT REQUIRE 6 days for it to come together, Allah CHOSE to create the universe in stages. If Allah had willed He could have created the universe in a split second but He chose not to, He chose to create the universe in stages. And what can this show us as human beings? For one. Patience! Allah swt stresses out for the believers in Him to have patience. And if The All Powerful can have patience even though He is not in need of it, that shows us something very beneficial and beautiful that we should import to our daily lives and learn from, its stressed out in numerous occasions in the Quran. For example look at us humans how we are created. We are created in several stages in the womb of our mothers. If Allah (swt) had willed for us to come out of our mothers wombs as soon as our mothers eggs got fertilated, He would have done so. But He chose to do it in stages. Allah (swt) is truly AMAZING and more in every single way!

  16. ARMY OF JESUS IS ISLAM says:

    Brother ibn anwar [please post this one instead)

    I Really dont know, Allahu alem, but Zayeds statements are very hypocritical, its very hard to tell who is a Muslim and who is not, i do take my statement back by calling him a munafik, i cant judge so i say Allahu alem, but he has given signs, even though haman was refuted, 100%. And jazakllah to my brother Ryhan above. I do believe your refutation in regards to horses, is definetly one of the best i have seen. And 100% refutes Hamans claims.

    BArekAllahfik. And my last response to (ZAYED AHMED). Please stick your head out of gabage hate sites. And before making comments here where your faith under our eyes turns into question, and wher your statements is causing fitnah. Please discuss this in private email. Then post your statement. That is indeed if you are a Muslim as you claim

  17. Ahmad Attiyah says:

    Check out the recent debate that Bassam Zawadi, author of http://www.call-to-monotheism.com had on the preservation of the Qur’an on you tube. Type in “Is the Qur’an Perfectly Preserved?”

  18. ARMY OF JESUS IS ISLAM says:

    Yeh Thanx Ahmed Attiya, i watched the whole debate, Bassam Zawadi Knocked Nabeel Qurashi OUT! If you watch the debate there is only variants in dialect which is completely acceptable, as dialect does not change WORD meanings, nor do we see words put in or taken out of the Quran, in the earliest 4 manuscript that Othman, hafsa distributed i.e, when you watch the debate Nabeel could not show a single reference from Early manuscripts that was distrubted had any variants or words put in or taken out. The Quran is truly Persevered like Brother Bassam Zawadi demonstrated here is the debate:

  19. Nur-el-Masih Ben Haq says:

    My brother in al-Masih, Nabeel Quraishi, knocked down the renowned Islamic debater, Bassam Zawadi by perfectly PROVING that al-Qur’an has NOT been preserved as Muslims claim? You need to watch it carefully!!!

  20. Jon says:

    Amd this is the main reason I read unveiling-christianity.com. Incredible post.

  21. mrsonic says:

    “Instead, why don’t you try to disprove the fact that over 500 eyewitnesses saw the resurrected Christ. The 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written by eyewitnesses of Jesus’s life or recieved info directly from eyewitnesses.”

    note that paul DESPERATELY claims “500 witnesses” to an audience who is UNABLE to check or verify pauls “500 hundred” witnesses.
    also note that in pauls entire letters these “500 hundred witnesses ” are mentioned once and only once.just consider the conflict of 1 Cor 15:5-11 with the motivation of the argument in 1 Cor 15:12ff. Paul wouldn’t need to argue that the christ was raised if there had been all these appearances.
    out of the 500, the gospel writers mention 0.026 % of the “500 hundred witnesses”
    the holy ghost inspired the writers to include less than a percent of the eyewitneses? if matthew had known about the “500 witnesses” why didn’t he use them to squash the “stolen body” claim which was “widely known” till matthews day?

  22. mrsonic says:

    The prophets also speak frequently about a third route to “atonement”, and it is this one that they say God prefers:

    “Sin is atoned through kindness and truth; one turns from evil though having respect for Adonai” (Mishlei 16:6).

    “Doing charitable deeds and justice is more pleasing to Adonai than a sacrifice” (Mishlei 21:3).

    “…so, Your Majesty, let my advice be acceptable to you – your sins will be removed by charitable deeds and your wrongdoings [will be removed] by showing mercy to the poor…” (Daniyel 4:24).

    “…I delight in kindness rather than sacrifice and in closeness to God more than olah-offerings…” (Hoshé’a 6:6).

    “…What shall I approach Adonai and bow myself before the Supreme God with? Should I approach Him with olah-sacrifices or calves in their first year? Will Adonai be pleased by thousands of rams, or tens of thousands of rivers of oil? Should I give my own first-born child [in payment] for my rebellion or the fruit of my own body [in payment] for my soul’s errors? Mankind, He has already told you what is ‘good’, what it is that Adonai wants of you – only to act justly, to love kindness, and to walk modestly with your God” (Michah 6:6-8).

    So says Adonai, Yisraél’s God: “…I did not speak to your ancestors or command them about olah-offerings or sacrifices on the day that I brought them from the land of Egypt, but I commanded them only about this one thing: Obey My Voice, and I will be your God and you will be My nation; and then you will walk in all the ways that I will command you, and it will be well with you…” (Yirm’yahu 7:21-23).

    The prophet Y’shayahu sums all of this up in eight verses of his opening chapter. He portrays God as saying that He is sick and tired of empty, insincere prayers and the endless parade of “sacrifices” offered by sanctimonious sinners just “going through the motions” but without true repentance in their hearts-

    isn’t what i have quoted above COMPLETELY DISASTOROUS and a heavy knock out punch to christian theology? God almighty is sick and tired of sacrifices, blood and flesh are nor fixing up the yahoods behaviour, conducting oneself in good and charitable works is what is going to fix up yahoodi behaviour.

  23. mrsonic says:

    “What use to Me is the huge number of your sacrifices?” Adonai says – “I am fed up with olah-offerings of rams and the offals of fattened calves, and the blood of oxen, lambs and goats does not give Me pleasure. When you come to appear before Me – who asked this of you, to come trampling through My courtyards? Do not bring your meaningless min’ḥah-offerings any more – I find it a disgusting stench… Rosh Ḥodesh, Shabbat, even the Festival assemblies – I cannot tolerate crookedness mixed with ‘service’. My soul detests your Rosh Ḥodesh and Festival observances, they have become tedious to Me; I can no longer put up with them. When you hold up your hands I will hide My eyes from you; I will not hear you no matter how many ‘prayers’ you say – because your hands are covered with blood! Wash, purify yourselves, remove the badness of your deeds from before My eyes, stop doing wrong! Learn to do right, seek justice, protect victims, treat orphans justly, support the claims of widows.
    “Come, please, let’s discuss this rationally,” Adonai says – “even if your sins are like bright crimson, I will bleach them as white as snow: even if they are as red as tola I will make them like [the colour of] wool!” (Y’shayahu 1:11-18).”

    please NOTE WHAT GOD ALMIGHTY SAID :

    Wash, purify yourselves, remove the badness of your deeds from before My eyes, stop doing wrong! Learn to do right, seek justice, protect victims, treat orphans justly, support the claims of widows.

    “Come, please, let’s discuss this rationally,” Adonai says – “even if your sins are like bright crimson, I will bleach them as white as snow: even if they are as red as tola I will make them like [the colour of] wool!”

    GOD DOESN’T CARE ABOUT SIN HE WILL MAKE THEM AS “WHITE AS SNOW”

    if God thought that man was UNABLE TO DO THE DEEDS he mentions above, why did He mention them?

  24. Maynard Richmond says:

    If only I had a quarter for each time I came here! Incredible post.

    • ARMY OF JESUS IS ISLAM says:

      Bible Scholars confession:
      PREFACE TO KJV 1873 EDITION
      No two early printings of the KJV were identical- not even the two printings of 1611 – and no two modern settings are identical either.

      These differences are due to accidental human error as well as to INTENTIONAL changes by printers and editors, who sought to ELIMINATE what they judged to be the errors of others and to confirm the text to their standards of english usage.

      HENCE they went and DELETED from the MODERN DAY BIBLE OVER 40 verses”:

      GO AND SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES!!!!!!!! THIS LINK:
      http://www.sound-doctrine.net/.....romNIV.htm

      QURAN:
      Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.(The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)”

  25. melani says:

    Allah dropped the ball…ALLAH LOST VERSES FROM THE KORAN! CARELESS!

    “It is We Who have sent down the Reminder (Qur’an) and We Who will preserve it.” (al-Qur’an 15:9)

    “Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available”’ – (Suyuti: Itqan, 3: 72).

    Allah lost the Koran…very sloppy…very CARELESS of him.

    And you are intellectually dishonest about it.

    Early Islam is a mess of irreconciable contradictions like the above. One hadith demolishes another. The whole evil-smelling mess is about violence and supremacism, slavery, misogyny and plunder.

    Early Islam was an evolving political war between the murderous dynasties. They all created contradictory material and they were the conniving thugs who created the Koran and hadiths.

    ALLAH LOST THE KORAN…”Much of the Qur’an has been lost”.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      None of what you have said negates the points that I made in the article. You are unable to attack a single point that I made because you don’t really know the subject matter. I have proven that the Qur’an is well preserved despite your thin excuses. Non-Muslim scholars like Andrew Rippin, William Muir and Bernard Lewis all agree with our position that the Qur’an is well preserved. What about the quotation that you have taken from Al-Suyuti’s Al-Itqan? That is an athar from Abdullah ibn Umar who said: “None should say that he got the Qur’an in full. He may not know what constitutes the full Qur’an. A considerable part of the Qur’an is gone. Rather he should say: I got therefrom only what appeared”. (Al-Suyuti, Jalal al-Din(2000). Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur’an. Beirut: Darul Kutub al-Ilmiyyah. pp. 48)
      This athar which is often cited by critics of the Qur’an is untenable. The chain of transmission for this report is, Isma’il ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub ibn Khawt from Nafi’ from Abdullah ibn Umar. It is defective because it contains Ayyub Ibn Khawt. The scholars of hadith are in agreement that reports coming from him are unreliable. Amir al-mu’mineen fil hadith(leader of the believers in hadith) Ibn Hajr Al-Asqalani cites no less than six major muhadditheen in his assessment and rejection of this athar. In is tahdhib al-tahdhib he cites Ibn Mu’in who declares that, “His (Ayyub ibn Khawt) reports are not written.” Al-Nasa’i and Al-Daraqutni decree that he is matruk or abandoned/forsaken. Al-Azdi declares that he is kadhdhab(a liar). Abu Hatim labelled him weak, unsound and invalid in hadith. Al-Saji viewed him as one who would narrate unfounded and baseless traditions or ahadith bawatil. After listing all of those scholars Ibn hajar remarks that Ayyub ibn Khawt is reported to have fabricated traditions and reported them using well-known reporters’ names. (Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Ahmad ibn ‘Ali(1996). Tahdhib al-Tahdhib. Beirut: Darul Ma’rifah. pp. 312) Al Dhahabi said that it would seem that this text was fabricated with a view to support deviationist movements’ belief in Islamic history that parts of the Qur’an are hidden and beyond the access of believers. (Al-Dhahabi, Muhammad Husayn(n.a.). Al-Tafsir al-Mufassirun. Vol. 2, pp. 35)
      So this athar is no proof at all against the validity of the Muslim position that the Qur’an is in its pristine purity. But even for the sake of argument if I were to grant that the athar is applicable notice that the person is made to say that,”a considerable part of the Qur’an is gone”. How can he make such a judgment without actually knowing those parts that are missing? The athar implicitly says that at least Ibn Umar had knowledge of those missing parts so that he could make the judgment that others do not have the complete Qur’an. You have thus been refuted from two angles.

      • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

        THE QUR’AN IS NOT PRESERVED AND IT IS VERY FAULTY

        Muslims are deceived that the Qur’an is perfect. That is not true. The Qur’an is not only very unpreserved and faulty, but it does not have 50% of the credibility of the Bible. Let me cite simple example:

        HOW CAN GOD GORGET WHAT HE SAID EARLIER
        ( A )
        According to Qur’an 3:45 Allah sent ANGELS to Mary; but according to Qur’an 19:17 Allah sent one ANGEL to Mary.
        ————————————–
        INCONSISTENCIES IN WHAT MARY AND THE ANGEL SAID
        ( B ).
        Qur’an 3
        3:45 “…the ANGELS said ‘OH MARY! LO! ALLAH GIVES YOU A GLAD TIDING OF A WORD FROM HIM. WHOSE NAME IS MESSIAH, SON OF MARY, A SIGN IN THE WORLD AND HEREAFTER AND ONE OF THOSE CLOSE TO ALLAH. 46 HE WILL TALK TO MANKIND IN HIS CRADLE AND HIS MANHOOD. AND HE IS AMONG THE RIGHTEOUS.
        Qur’an 19
        19:19 He (the Angel) Said ‘I AM JUST A MESSENGER OF YOUR LORD, THAT I MAY GIVE YOU A FAULTLES SON
        ( c )
        Qur’an 3
        3:47 She said ‘MY LORD how can I have a son when no man has touched me?
        Qur’an 19
        19:20 She said ‘How can I have a son when no man has touched me AND I HAVE NOT BEEN UNCHASTE?
        ( d )
        Qur’an 3
        3:47…..He said SO IT WILL BE. ALLAH CREATES WHAT HE WISHES. IF HE DECREES A THING HE JUST SAY TO IT ‘be’ AND IT WILL. 48 AND HE WILL TEACH HIM SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM AND TORAH AND GOSPEL. 49 AND HE WILL MAKE HIM A MESSENGER TO ISRAELITES”.

        Qur’an 19
        19:20….. He said ‘SO IT WILL BE YOUR LORD SAID IT IS EASY FOR US. AND IT WILL BE THAT WE WILL MAKE HIM A REVELATION TO MANKIND AND MERCY FROM US IT IS A THING ORDAINED

        You can see that apart from grammatical or historical mistake in 3:45, where angel Gabriel is introduced as angels, even the conversations were not consistent. How could the ALL-KNOWING GOD make so cheap mistake?
        OTHER PROVES THAT THE QUR’AN IS NOT INTACT AT ALL
        1. First of all, when the Qur’an was first written, diacritical marks were not used. So, with passage of time, the real meanings were lost. 14 different possible readings were first shortlisted. At last Muslims shortlisted 7 guess readings. Each of the 7 different readings gives different meaning to the Qur’an.

        2. Again, according to the Hadiths and the Qur’an itself, during the time of Muhammad, the Qur’an under went several editing such as abrogation, omission of some vereses etc:
        Qur’an 2.106 “Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?”

        Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
        ‘Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an) yet we leave some of what he recites.’ Ubai says, ‘I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever.’ But Allah said: None of Our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar (2.106)” (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 527)

        3. Yet again, why have the over one hundred Qur’anic verses forgotten by Uthman been named al-Hadith al-Quds by some scholars later? Did Allah ever indicate that some of His words should be the Qur’an while some should be Hadith Quds? Were the so-called Hadith al-Quds so named in the time of Prophet Muhammad or was the term invented to cover up the scandal of omission of the over one hundred verses from the Qur’an? And why is it that instead of admitting the fact that during the compilation of the Qur’an, over 100 verses were forgotten instead of fabricating a name for them and dubiously rationalizing the scandal?

        4. Another obvious evidences of mutilations in the Qur’an include the following:
        a. ALIF. LAM. MIN
        b. KAF. YA. A. IN. SAD ” ”
        c. TA. SIN ” ”
        d. ALIF. LAM. MIN. SAD ” ”
        e. TA. SIN. MIN ” ”
        f. ALIF. LAM. RA. ” ”
        g. ALIF. LAM. MIN. RA etc etc. (which have been rendered meaningless by wrongful removal of some connective letters or words)These evident corruptions occurred more than thirty (30) times in the Qur’an. What is clear is that God could not have made such meaningless statements. And if He did Prophet Muhammad would logically have asked Him (God) their meanings.

      • Abu Shuja'ah says:

        “Nur el Masih Ben Haq”:

        You have presented quite the fallacious argument, to begin with you have presented two different scenarios, one from Surah 3, the other from Surah 19. This is clearly your attempt at an exegesis through the fallacy of appeal to consequences of a belief/ wishful thinking. If for the sake of argument, let’s say that the Qur’aan is referring to the same situation, how would you therefore present your argument in terms of your evidence?

        (1) What is there to indicate it is referring to the same event?
        (2) Is it impossible to have numerous visitations by Angels of the Lord?

        These two questions, negate the validity of your argument. Proof by contradiction or so to speak. You presuppose the context of the verses without reasoning that they are not the *same* situation. Could you perhaps elaborate on the views you hold, which demonstrate a *singular* visitation?

        =========

        As for your alleged “historicity” questions, they are products of the weakness of your own intelligence.

        (1) The Qiraat is known to Arabs, just as they were known to the Hebrews and to other Semitic peoples. It would seem odd for us in English to read:

        “H lks crs” = “He likes cars”.

        That is because English is a fairly recent language, developed through the Anglo-Saxons. Whereas the languages of Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic are Semitic and have a different vowel and consonant system. Your argument essentially boils down to, “an argument from ignorance” or “damnant quod non intelligunt”. The vowel marks are not needed, unless one cannot understand the vernacular being used from a varying Tribe or Nation. If you were to take up any Arabic text book, you’d see the vowels missing, does that mean they cannot understand it? Of course not, they are trained to read without vowels as that is the nature of their language.

        Also the Qur’aan was revealed with 7 ahruf, not “14 variant readings”. Do some studies on the history of the Qur’aan, the arhuf are well recorded within Islam’s historicity.

        (2) I do not see how abrogation means that God has erred. Let’s take an example from Shaykh Mumtaz ul Haq (db), the Qur’aan are commands from Allah, the canon of the Qur’aan are the set commands (ayats, signs) which God sent down. His commands, the latest are what the Qur’aan is considered to be. The Qur’aan came down in stages because it created a culture/ new lifestyle for the people who were to practise it.

        We follow this same system when we implement changes into our lives today, let’s take self reformation in terms of dieting. One day you initially lower your carbohydrate intake, subsequently, to cement these changes you gradually decrease your intake. Each day the value of the intake you decrease, abrogating the intake of the previous day. Does that mean you erred or made a mistake? No. Does it mean that you are effecting a change and developing a culture? Yes. Therefore this negative connotation of the meaning of the word abrogation is nothing more than a farce based on again, ignorance.

        (3) Hadith Qudsi are not Qur’aanic Ayah. They are below the Qur’aan but are the best ahadith.The difference between Hadith Qudsi and Qur’aan is of Ghayr Matloo (not recited) and Matloo (recited) respectively. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) was advised by Jibraaeel (Alayhis salaam) as to which revelation form part of the Qur’aan. Please learn the difference, thanks.

        (4) These are not corruptions, but actual ayah in the Qur’aan which can be read and observed today. These ayah have a meaning which is not known. The question is, if something’s meaning is not known, does that make it corrupted? As a Christian the nature of the God head is a holy mystery, does that mean that by your logic, your own theological perspective is corrupted? Again, use your ‘aql (reasoning, intelligence) before you speak. You have sacred mysteries also known as holy mysteries, because your faith has these and they are tied to the doctrine of God’s “perfect will” (the opposite with be permissible will), does that make your faith corrupted? Please, don’t throw stones when you, yourself, reside in a glass house.

        wa Allahu Alam.

  26. MRK says:

    CHALLENGE TO Nur el Mushrik bin pauline khinzeer.

    Matthew
    “And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and
    preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of
    sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went
    throughout all Syria…”

    DID YOU SEE THE WORDS …TEACHING IN THIER SYNAGOUES…

    ?

    remember those WORDS

    DID YOU SEE THE WORDS …FAME WENT THROUGHOUT SYRIA ?

    REMEMBER THAT SYRIAC IS A DIALECT OF ARAMAIC.

    REMEMBER THAT SYRIAC/HEBREW/ARAMAIC ARE ALL SISTER LANGUAGES.

    BART EHRMAN

    The most recent through studies of Gentiles in Galilee have been undertaken by the American scholar Mark Chancey. Chancey has studied every archaeological find from Galilee from around the time of the first century, has read every single piece of writing from the period of any relevance, and draws a decisive conclusion: the Gentiles in Galilee were almost exclusively located in the two major cities, Sepphoris and Tiberias. All the rest of Galilee was predominantly Jewish. And since most of Galilee was rural, not urban, the vast majority of Jews had no encounters with Gentiles.

    Moreover, Greek was not widely known, let alone normally, spoken. The vast majority of Jews spoke Aramaic and had no facility in Greek.

    Forged
    page 73-74

    GALILEE PREDOMINANTLY JEWISH

    GREEK WAS NOT WIDELY KNOWN

    VAST MAJORITY OF JEWS SPOKE ARAMAIC

    jEZUZ TaUGHT IN THIER SYNAGOUES

    hIZ FAME WENT THROUGH OUT SYRIA

    ALRIGHT, LETS MOVE ON

    mATTHEW SAYS,

    I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

    james still SAYS,

    We should keep in mind that which Downing points out: “Jesus made no attempt to take his message to Gentile communities (Rom. 15:8; Matt. 10:6; 15:24) and [the Syrophoenician woman story] provides no exception to this conclusion” (1992: 138).

    CAN YOU TELL US WHY NOT ONE ARAMAIK /HEBREW/ SYRIAC MANUSCRIPT / PIECE OF MANUSCRIPT HAS BEEN FOUND WHICH TALKS ABOUT jeZUZ and QUOTES /PARAPHARSES his BIG speeches wHICH he DELIVERED in SYNAGOGUES WHICH HAD ARAMAIK SPEAKING JEWS?

    you talk about Quranic variants, yet you don’t know that greek is not A SEMITIC LANGUAGE. you don’t ask HOW ACCURATELY aramaic was RENDERED IN TO GREEK by the UNKNOWN translator? you don’t even know the UNKNOWN translaters LANGUAGE SKILLS IN ARAMAIC/HEBREW/GREEK/SYRIAC

    “But even the older translations are only to be used with caution as
    witness for the Greek text: No translation exactly corresponds to the
    original even if it is literal. Nuances and special features of the
    Greek language (imperfect, aorist, perfect; subjunctive, optative;
    middle voice; the multitude of prepositions, etc.) cannot be
    reproduced exactly in a translation. Often a translation variant is
    only the consequence of an interpretation of a difficult Greek text.
    Added to that, the textual history of the versions themselves is
    studded with problems.”

    “… certain features of Greek syntax and vocabulary cannot be conveyed
    in a translation. For example, Latin has no definite article; Syriac
    cannot distinguish between the Greek aorist and perfect tenses; Coptic
    lacks the passive voice and must use a circumlocution”

    SO tell us nur al mushrik, how ACCURately DID the UNKNOWN translator render a semitic language into a NON SEMITIC language?

    and since jeZUZ’ deciples would be speaking low level aramic because they were ILLITERATE ( you know like villagers today or probably worse because vast majority of ancients were illiterate)how was there no fear that rendition in another language /paraphrasing in another language would not TOTALLY DISTORT the speeches?

    qur’aan

    you know nur al mushrik, you have apologetic ministeries , why don’tyou use them to answer the problem you have parroted with regards to the qur’aan.

    let me help you

    mary receives news about herself and her son by angels

    word used for ” said” is qalat = 3rd person femine singular

    then Qur’aan takes a jump to the time when mary would be impregnated and asks how she will have a son.

    then she recives a response. not QALOO , NOT QALAT, BUT QA LA.

    • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

      ANSWERING THE ‘CHALLENGE’ OF A CHARLATAN

      You said:
      (Jesus said) I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
      james still SAYS,
      We should keep in mind that which Downing points out: “Jesus made no attempt to take his message to Gentile communities (Rom. 15:8; Matt. 10:6; 15:24) and [the Syrophoenician woman story] provides no exception to this conclusion” (1992: 138).
      My response:
      JESUS WAS TO PREACH TO THE JEWS AND THEN GENTILES (The Whole World)
      Long before Jesus came, God said Jesus would at first concentrate on the Jews before ultimately universalizing his mission. And that was what exactly happened:
      Isaiah 49:6-9 “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Thus saith the Lord…”

      That was why when Jesus came, he said at the first phase of his mission that he (in that period) was only sent to the Jews:

      Matthew 15:24, “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

      Mat 10:5-15 KJV These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [v. 6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

      These are the fulfillment of the first part of Isaiah 49:6-9

      Second Phase
      Ultimately, it became time for the Gentiles (the World) to join the community of Christ:

      Matthew 28:19 Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

      John 8:12 “I am the Light of the World. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life”

      John 10;10 for “I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full”

      Acts 13:47 “The Lord has commanded us, saying, I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth”
      Acts 18:6 “Henceforth, I (Paul) will go unto the Gentiles”
      Rom. 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
      Rom. 15:16 “I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles”

      And these are the fulfillment of the second part of the prophecy of Isaiah 49:6-9.
      So, Jesus came to fulfill Isaiah 49:6-9 as scheduled by God. Therefore Muslims should have no problems with that at all.

      You Said:
      you talk about Quranic variants, yet you don’t know that greek is not A SEMITIC LANGUAGE. you don’t ask HOW ACCURATELY aramaic was RENDERED IN TO GREEK by the UNKNOWN translator? you don’t even know the UNKNOWN translaters LANGUAGE SKILLS IN ARAMAIC/HEBREW/GREEK/SYRIAC

      My response:
      Remember that the Holy Bible is the oldest surviving book. There are theories of Aramaic (or Hebrew) and Greek respectively being its primary language. The theory of Greek being the primary language of New Testament is academically questioned.

      My response:
      I am NOT a mushrik. You MRK are mushrik al-kabir. And I AM NOT a Christian Clergy and have NEVER been one.

      • mrk says:

        you like typical christian FAILED to understand why those verses were quoted. they were quoted to show that your godi n flesh was supposed to be a big hot shot in synagoues and his AUDIENCE WOULD HAVE CONSISTED OF JEWS AND JEWISH OPPONENTS. the problem is that we don’t have rebuttals to him in hebrew QUOTING his words in hebrew/aramaic.

        for example , christian apologists reply to skeptics who attack christianity, but their is no rabbinical writing quoting jesus’ words in aramaik and replying to him. think about this, jesus’ view on divorce would be contrary to the view of pharisees and sadduces view on divorce. jesus claiming that he is yhwh in flesh form IN SYNAGOUGES would be SHOCKING to the jews. this would obviously create rebuttals . now you tell me something, if we don’t have his words but greek words how are we EVER going to know what the heck was said? and you talk about koranic variants?

  27. Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

    INDEED, PROPHET MUHAMMAD, ISLAM AND THE QURAN WERE ORIGINALLY CONFINED TO THE ARABS.

    Initially Islam described itself not as the only currently acceptable religion of God, but as just one of the several other currently acceptable religions of God.

    Qur’an 2:62 “Surely those who believe (in the Qur’an) and those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians and the Sabians–any who believe in God and the Last Day and work righteousness shall have their reward with the Lord. On them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve” See also 3:110, 3:113-115..

    These verses were parts of Prophet Muhammad’s initial compromise of recognizing the currency of Christianity, Judaism etc along with his Islam. As a matter of fact, at that early stage, Allah impliedly claimed that both Muhammad and the Qur’an were for the Arabs alone:

    Qur’an 14:4“And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.”

    (InferenceAs it has always been the tradition, the Arabic speaking Prophet Muhammad, was sent to those whose language is Arabic so that the message could be clear.)

    Qur’an 62:2 “He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest.”

    (InferenceAllah has sent to the Arabs, who were deeply in jahiliyya, their own prophet in order to build their capacity.)

    Qur’an 20:113 “Thus we have revealed it as a Lecture in Arabic, and have displayed therein certain threats, or that it may cause that peradventure they may keep from evil them to take heed.”

    (InferenceSince the intended beneficiaries of the message of the Qur’an are Arabic speakers, the Qur’an has been sent in Arabic language.)
    Etc etc.

    Prophet Muhammad abandoned the idea of an ethnic and localized Islam only when he gained much followership and warriors enough to universalize his religion.

    So, MRK, you can see between Islam and Masihiyya which one was originally a localized and ethnic religion.

    • mrk says:

      your god yhwh was a local god who gave national revealation to israel. your god came down as animal(lamb)/human in the form of a yahoodi.he clearly refered to a non-israelite gentile woman as a dog and her ill daughter and her people as dogs ( in todays vanacular BITCH/LITTLE BITCH if refering to woman) he ignores her,
      his deciples ignore her.yet not once he treats a JEW LIKE THE WAY THE gentile woman was TREATED. the gentile woman who was calm and humble refuted your god and then she sort treatment for her daughter.COMPARE TO the way jariu’s was treated by the lamb goddess. just a simple juxtaposition with matthews version reveals the fact that jesus clearly believed that non-gentiles had LOW status than the children (israelites) WHAT EVER happen to eQUAL RIGHTS?muhammad ADDRESSED DIFFERENT groups of people and said they can ENTER INTO GODS KINGDOM. your gods behaviour is easily explained when interpreted in light of what the jews BELIEVED about the non-jews. to the jews, the gentiles were dogs witthout guidance/NO LAW. so its no suprise that your lamb god is following the same pattern. read the article i linked to. ask, why did peter need a revealation to tell him that it is okay to eat with pig eating gentiles on the same table? why didn’t he just say ,’hey, lamb jeszuz also loved and eat with pig eating gentiles’? no he needed a revelation to tell him it is okay , did he forget what his post ressurected god said? did the apostles and the brethren forget what the post ressureted lamb god said or is the passage in matthew you quoted simply creation of a paulist christian?
      and why is it THAT this post ressurected god WAS hiding behind deciples giving such commands in matthew? why didn’t he do it before his ressurection?

      i aint wasting my time repeating what the article has already addressed.

      “Prophet Muhammad abandoned the idea of an ethnic and localized Islam only when he gained much followership and warriors enough to universalize his religion.”

      but you lamb worshipper , one can say that the animal god you worship abandoned the jews because he was getting refuted by them in the synagouges where he was preaching protestant christianity .

      look its the same for paul

      Paul said, It was necessary that the word of God should first
      have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judgeyourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

      Why? Because no orthodox Jew is going to fall for such nonsense, justas they still have not fallen for such nonsense for over two thousand years.

      none of the more mainstream Jewish factions bought his nonsense about a resurrected messiah (since theyall knew the scriptures and no such prophesy had been fulfilled byanything they saw in their time) he FOCUSED instead on the Gentiles.They didn’t know what the “prophets of old” prophesied, so Paul could get away with a hell of a lot more bullshit.

      The mainstream Jews wouldn’t follow his cult; the radical, reformistJews wouldn’t follow his cult; so, he travels FAR from any of it and focuses on the Gentiles, aka, pagans, who are so desperate to believe anything that they believe just about everything.

      quote:

      Qur’an 14:4“And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.”

      (InferenceAs it has always been the tradition, the Arabic speaking Prophet Muhammad, was sent to those whose language is Arabic so that the message could be clear.)

      endquote

      The most recent through studies of Gentiles in Galilee have been undertaken by the American scholar Mark Chancey. Chancey has studied every archaeological find from Galilee from around the time of the first century, has read every single piece of writing from the period of any relevance, and draws a decisive conclusion: the Gentiles in Galilee were almost exclusively located in the two major cities, Sepphoris and Tiberias. All the rest of Galilee was predominantly Jewish. And since most of Galilee was rural, not urban, the vast majority of Jews had no encounters with Gentiles.

      Moreover, Greek was not widely known, let alone normally, spoken. The vast majority of Jews spoke Aramaic and had no facility in Greek.

      Forged
      page 73-74

      GALILEE PREDOMINANTLY JEWISH

      GREEK WAS NOT WIDELY KNOWN

      VAST MAJORITY OF JEWS SPOKE ARAMAIC

      jEZUZ TaUGHT IN THIER SYNAGOUES

      mATTHEW SAYS,

      I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

      “And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues…

      you are comparing this 2 muhammad who addressed DIFFERENT GROUPS of people in arabia ,especially ummi polytheists? have u never read the earliest parts of the qur’aan and see which group it is addressing?

      note that the Qur’aan did not say that muhammad was SENT ONLY TO THE ARABS , but your bable says jesus was sent only to the jews and he tells his deciples to go not to non-jews but jews.

      i challenge an animal worshipper like you to find this in the qur’aan.

      what does ONLY MEAN?

      without others or anything further; alone; solely; exclusively: This information is for your eyes only.

      CONFINED. ONE PLACE ONE DIRECTION. AND that is the language that your lamb goddess used.

      “Qur’an 62:2 “He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest.”

      (InferenceAllah has sent to the Arabs, who were deeply in jahiliyya, their own prophet in order to build their capacity.)”

      you are a freakin jahil. can you tell me the word in arabic for ‘unlettered’ and look at how it is used in the qur’aan? does gentile mean anything to you, jahil mushrik?

      • mrk says:

        “Qur’an 14:4“And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.””

        it seems that the emphasis is on getting the idea through to the human brain not on the QAWM. it is the UNDERSTANDING WHICH IS IMPORTANT. are we to believe that the qawm did not consist of different etnicities? was not bilal an african? were there absolutely no non-arab migration to arabia before prophet existed?

      • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

        MRK, STOP COMMITTING APOSTACY LIKE A NEW CONVERT TO ISLAM

        You said:
        “your god yhwh was a local god who gave national revealation to israel.
        I say:
        Both the Bible and Qur’an agree that for strategic reasons, at early stage, the divine revelations to Israel were ‘national.’ They became universal eventually and as scheduled.

        You said:
        “your god came down as animal(lamb)/human in the form of a yahoodi.”
        I say:
        You are completely ignorant about INCARNATION. Adoption of different nature happens in the spiritual world. Check your Qur’an, the angels sent to Prophet Lut assumed perfect nature of human being; when angel Jibril was sent to Maryam he assumed perfect nature of human being. All these is to ease communications and interactions between entities of varying levels.
        The tradition is, when a spiritual being is sent to human beings for on very serious mission, the former assumed the perfect nature of the later for easy interaction.
        Allah says in the Qur’an 6:9, “Had We appointed an ANGEL our messenger, We ASSUREDLY had made him LIKE A MAN SO THAT HE MIGHT SPEAK TO (associate with) MEN….”
        Heb. 2:16, “For surely it is NOT ANGELS that he (Jesus) helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 FOR THIS REASON HE (GOD) HAD TO MAKE HIM (JESUS) LIKE HIS BROTHERS IN EVERY WAY in order that……” (Compare Qur’an 6:9)

        You said:
        “why is it THAT this post ressurected god WAS hiding behind deciples giving such commands in matthew? why didn’t he do it before his ressurection?”
        I say:
        You are com fusing the INCARNATED Jesus with Jesus in his divine state. The Bible says (Heb. 2:16-17) “For surely it is NOT ANGELS that he (Jesus) helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 FOR THIS REASON HE (GOD) HAD TO MAKE HIM (JESUS) LIKE HIS BROTHERS IN EVERY WAY…”
        Use your common sense. Did Jesus incarnate to demonstrate an ideal human being or God? The entire processes in his mission were intended for the humans to emulate. If he had continued to display divinity after the incarnation, then what is the incarnation for? Come on use your brain!

        You said:
        “..but you lamb worshipper , one can say that the animal god you worship …”
        I say:
        You of course know that I don’t worship any ANIMAL GOD. You on the other hand worship a fetish pagan stone (al-Hajr al-Aswad). Don’t you know that Hajr Aswad was adopted by Islam as a compromise to lure the pagans? When you prostrate to worship in the direction of Kaabah, don’t you ask yourself what is inside the Kaabah? The resident of Kaabah is the fetish Hajr Aswad. So, a worshiper of idol stone like you has no moral justification to question my ‘worship’ of Ruh’Allah/Kalimatullah!!

        You said:
        “.. none of the more mainstream Jewish factions bought his nonsense about a resurrected messiah …”

        I say:
        At least not as bad as the way mainstream Arab pagans rejected the “sensible” Islam such that early Muslims had to escape to the Christian nation of Ethiopia and come back only after the compromise of adopting most of the pagan practice including the worship of Hajr Aswad. Even then force (and NOT reason) had to be used to sustain Islam despite the adoption of Hajr Aswad without any command from God (There is No where in the Qur’an where Allah said ANY THING about al-Hajr al-Aswad. It must have been smuggled into Islam by some mushrikin).

        And better watch what you say about Jesus, otherwise some Islamist may declare rajam on you for apostasy. They may not spare you simply because you are jahil al-kabir.

  28. mrk says:

    “(InferenceAllah has sent to the Arabs, who were deeply in jahiliyya, their own prophet in order to build their capacity.)”

    UNLIKE your jesus who TURNED his back on a non-jewish woman, RIGHT?

  29. mrk says:

    “Prophet Muhammad abandoned the idea of an ethnic and localized Islam only when he gained much followership and warriors enough to universalize his religion. ”

    WHEn he was in makkah he could have easily accepted the pagan offer to make him thier ruler.they could have given him all the cash he wanted and he could have done what jesus did

    “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, >
    Itell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one >
    familydivided against each other, three against two and two > against
    three.They will be divided, father against son and son > against father,
    mother against daughter and daughter against > mother, mother-in-law
    against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law > against mother-in-
    law.”

    in Luke (12:49-53)> he says: “I have
    come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it > were already
    kindled! …”

    since you are jeolous because of islams SUCCESS in arabia and your backside is on fire BECAUSE christianties FAILURE TO GAIN or CONVERT ISRAEL it is understandable why you’re ass burning.

    MUHAMMAD COULD HAVE INTERNALLY DIVIDED THE PAGANS AND GAINED SUCCESS that way, but he REJECTED thier offer and called them to unitarian monethieism.

    when the prophet changed DIRECTION OF QIBLAH THIS WOULD NOT PISS OFF THE QURASHY PAGANS

    your pauline jesus and paul’s “dividing game” was badly caught out

    is it a suprise that

    Archaeological evidence secures the case: though a vast amount of
    material evidence has been uncovered of unmistakably Jewish occupationthroughout Palestine, as well as considerable evidence of pagan inhabitants, absolutely no material evidence of any Christian
    population can be found there until later centuries. In fact, only in
    the 3rd century does material evidence of a Christian presence
    anywhere in the Empire begin to match that of even minor pagan cults.
    Therefore, from both observations it follows that if Christians
    inhabited Palestine in the first century, their numbers must have been
    truly negligible. And to carry the point home, even the most biased of
    Christian sources make no claims to the contrary. Acts suggests the
    mission was taken to the Gentiles because Jews simply weren’t buying
    it anymore.[1] This looks pretty bad . Where Christianity
    was most open to being checked against the facts is where it was least
    successful. Hmmm.

    Hmmm indeed!

    • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

      You said:

      (Jesus said) “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, >
      Itell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one >
      familydivided against each other, three against two and two > against
      three.They will be divided, father against son and son > against father,
      mother against daughter and daughter against > mother, mother-in-law
      against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law > against mother-in-
      law.”

      in Luke (12:49-53)> he says: “I have
      come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it > were already
      kindled! …”

      I say:

      These are obviously NOT instructions but evaluation/forecasting. Jesus was hyperbolically evaluating and forecasting the consequences of his ministry for the believers to brace up. There is no any instruction there. So, you quoted irrelevantly.

      JESUS (The Prince of Peace) SAYS:

      Matthew 5:9, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.”

      Matthew 5: 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

      40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

      DO NOT LIVE BY THE SWORD
      Matthew 26:51-52 …. Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”

      LOVE YOUR ENEMIES

      43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

      1 Peter 3:11

      11 They must turn from evil and do good;
      they must seek peace and pursue it.

      Galatians 5:22

      22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

  30. Ibn Anwar says:

    Nur el-Masih Ben Haq said:
    “INDEED, PROPHET MUHAMMAD, ISLAM AND THE QURAN WERE ORIGINALLY CONFINED TO THE ARABS.

    Initially Islam described itself not as the only currently acceptable religion of God, but as just one of the several other currently acceptable religions of God.

    Qur’an 2:62 “Surely those who believe (in the Qur’an) and those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians and the Sabians–any who believe in God and the Last Day and work righteousness shall have their reward with the Lord. On them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve” See also 3:110, 3:113-115..”

    These verses were parts of Prophet Muhammad’s initial compromise of recognizing the currency of Christianity, Judaism etc along with his Islam.

    My reply:
    Those are your vain and wishful desires. Mufti Shafi’ Uthmani explains the the verse in question in the following:
    Surely, those who believed in Allah, and those who
    became Jewish, and Christians, and the Sabeans —
    whosoever believes in Allah and in the Last Day, and
    does good deeds — for them, with their Lord, is their
    reward, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they
    grieve. (Verse 62)
    The previous verse spoke of how the Israelites drew upon themselves the wrath of Allah through their habitual insolence and disobedience. Now, this account may lead the listeners, or the Jews themselves, to suppose that, in view of such transgression, their Taubah (repentance), if they agree to offer it, would not be acceptable to Allah. In order to dispel such a misgiving, the present verse lays
    down a general principle: no matter how a man has been behaving earlier, so long as he submits himself fully to the commandments of Allah in his beliefs and in his deeds both, he is acceptable to Allah, and will get his reward. It is obvious enough that after the revelation
    of the Holy Qur’an, which is the last message of Allah, perfect obedience to Allah can only mean accepting Islam and following the Last Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. The verse, in effect, assures everyone that once a man has accepted Islam, all his former transgressions, whether in the matter of beliefs or in that of deeds, will be forgiven, and he will become worthy of receiving the rewards of the other world. Let us note, in passing, that nothing is definitely known as to the
    beliefs and the practices of the Sabeans, and different opinions have been expressed on the subject. (Most probably they used to worship the stars).
    One might also ask why the verse mentions the Muslims, for if it is an invitation to Islam, there is no need to extend the invitation to those who have already accepted Islam. But if we keep in mind the richly concentrated style of the Holy Qur’an, and try to look beyond the literal sense of the words into the implications and suggestions contained in the verse, we would find that the inclusion of the Muslim
    factor has added a new dimension to the meaning. It is es if a king should, in a similar situation, say that his laws are impartially applicable to all his subjects, and that whosoever obeys them shall receive his reward for obedience irrespective of whether he has earlier been a friend or a foe. Obviously, the friend has always been loyal and obedient, and the warning and the promise have really been addressed to the foe. But the suggestion contained in such a formulation is that the favours of the king do not proceed from any personal attachment to the friends, but depend on the quality of obedience and loyalty, and hence the foes too will become worthy of his favours if they acquire the necessary quality. This is the raison d’etre of mentioning the Muslims along with the non-Muslims in this verse, which should never be taken to imply that salvation can be attained without accepting Islam. We had better dispel another misunderstanding which is likely to arise from the wordings of the present verse — and, which is actually being promoted by certain ‘modernizers’. The verse mentions only two articles of faith of the Islamic creed — faith in Allah and faith in the Day of Judgment. This should not be taken to mean that in order to attain salvation it is enough to have faith only in Allah and in the Day of Judgment. Fcr, the Holy Qur’Zn repeatedly declares that he who does not believe in the prophets, in angels and in the Books of Allah is not a Muslim. Faith in Allah is the first article in the Islamic creed, while faith in the Day of Judgment is the last. By mentioning only these two, the verse intends to say in a succinct manner that it is necessary to have faith in all the articles of the creed, from the first to i the last. Moreover, it is through the prophets and the Books of Allah alone that man can acquire any knowledge of the essence and the attributes of Allah and of what is to happen on the Day of Judgment, while the Books of Allah are revealed to the prophets through an angel. So, it is not possible to have faith in Allah and the Day of Judgment until and unless one has faith in the angels, in the Books of Allah and in the prophets. (Mufti Taqi Uthmani, Ma’riful Qur’an, Vol. 1, pp. 227-229)

    Nur el-Masih Ben haq said:
    As a matter of fact, at that early stage, Allah impliedly claimed that both Muhammad and the Qur’an were for the Arabs alone

    Prophet Muhammad abandoned the idea of an ethnic and localized Islam only when he gained much followership and warriors enough to universalize his religion.

    My reply:
    “ويرد عليه أن هناك سورًا مدينة ورد فيها الخطاب بصيغة يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ وسورًا مكية ورد فيها الخطاب بصيغة يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مثال الأولى سورة البقرة، فإنها مدنية وفيها يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ اعْبُدُوا رَبَّكُمُ الآية، ومثال الثانية سورة الحج، فإنها مكية عند بعض أهل العلم، وفيها يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ارْكَعُوا الآية. ”
    (Muhammad Shafaat Rabbani)
    Every time you type you show your tremendous ignorance on the subject you attempt to address.One of the clearest characteristics of many of the Meccan revelations which constitute Muhammad’s s.a.w. ministry at its earliest stage is the occurrence of the phrase “يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ” which literally means ‘Oh humanity’. One of the early followers of Muhammad s.a.w. before the hijrah was Bilal bin Rabah who was not an Arab. In fact, he was appointed the first mu’ezzin (caller to prayer) upon the completion of the mosque in Medina. There isn’t a single injunction anywhere in the Qur’an which limits the message that Muhammad received at any point in time to the Arabs. Surah 14:4 does not help your case in the least. Muhammad s.a.w. lived among people who were mostly Arabs and the lingua franca was Arabic. It would have been senseless to deliver the message in Cantonese or any other foreign tongue that the immediate sociolinguistics context of the revealed message did not know. One should also notice that the verse does not use “faqat” or “only” for “qaumihi”.

    Nur el-Masih Ben haq said:
    So, MRK, you can see between Islam and Masihiyya which one was originally a localized and ethnic religion.

    My reply:
    Prof. E.P. Sanders in his acclaimed ‘The Historical Figure of Jesus’ says:
    “Jesus’ own mission was to Israel, and especially to the ‘lost sheep’ of Israel. He made no effort to seek and win Gentiles. We must suspect that the most favourable statements about Gentiles (Matt. 8.10 and 15.28, on the greatness of the faith of two individual Gentiles) are Matthew’s creation.” (Sanders, E.P. (1995). The Historical Figure of Jesus. England: Penguin Books. pp. 192)

    In an earlier response Nur el-Masih cited Matthew 28:19 as a proof text for Jesus’ alleged global ministry. I have addressed this verse in my article entitled “Matthew 28:19”. To make it easy I shall reproduce the relevant information here.
    According to the New Testament scholar J.B. Philips in his Translation of the New Testament into Modern English:

    “The modern view is that Mark’s Gospel came first, and that both Matthew and Luke based theirs on Mark and other collections of material about Jesus.” [2]

    This view is shared by numerous other Biblical scholars. One would think that if the author of Matthew(whoever he was) based his writings on Mark the Trinitarian formula would be seen in the latter. The truth is of course this so called baptismal formula is never to be found again anywhere in the New Testament after Matthew 28:19. The fact that Mark, Luke and John never mentions it is sufficient reason to place the verse under suspicion.

    Krister Stendahl Ph.D, Theol.D. who’s Assoc. Professor of New Testament Studies at Harvard University in his commentary of Matthew writes:

    “1 19. This mission is described in the language of the church and most commentators doubt that the trinitarian formula was original at this point in Mt.’s Gospel, since the NT elsewhere does not know of such a formula & describes baptism as being performed in the name of the Lord Jesus (e.g. Ac 2:38, 8:16, etc.). Neither Mt. nor any of the other synoptics describes Jesus as practising baptism;…” [3] (emphasis added)

    The New International Standard Bible Encyclopedia writes:

    “Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus.” [4]

    The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary says:

    “…the baptismal formula of Matt. 28:19 (perhaps a development from the simpler formula reflected in Acts 2:38; 8:16; and elsewhere…” [5]

    In a footnote to the verse in the 1966 Jerusalem Bible we read:

    “It may be that this formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the liturgical usage established later in the primitive community. It will be remembered that the Acts speak of baptizing “in the name of Jesus”, Acts 1:5 +. But whatever the variation on formula the underlying reality remains the same” [6]

    In The Five Gospels we read:

    “Teach and Baptize. The great commission in Matt 22:18-20 has its counterpart in Luke 24:47-48 and Acts 1:8(both Luke and Acts were written by the same author). In John 20:22-23, Jesus bestows the holy spirit on the disciples and confirms their authority to forgive and bind sins. These commissions have little in common, which indicates that they have been created by the individual evangelists to express their conception of the future of the Jesus movement. As a consequence, they cannot be traced back to Jesus.

    The commission in Matthew is expressed in Matthew’s language and reflects the evangelist’s idea of the world mission of the church. Jesus probably had no idea of launching a world mission and certainly was not an institution builder. The three parts of the commission-make disciples, baptize and teach- constitute the program adopted by the infant movemen, but do not reflect direct instructions from Jesus.

    These commissions do not rest on old tradition, as their variety and divergence show. They are framed in language characteristic of the individual evangelists and express their views of how the mission of the infant church is to be understood.” [7] (emphasis added)

    Finally, we read in The Gospels and Jesus :

    “The command to the disciples to baptize ‘in the name of’ the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ‘ is quite without parallel in the New Testament. Elsewhere baptism is spoken of as being in or through the name of Jesus( for example, see Acts 2:38, 10:48; Rom 6:3, 1 Cor 1:13,15 and 6:11) Matthew’s use of the threefold name in baptism is a later development which quickly became the standard Christian formulation.” [8] (emphasis added)

    Out the window goes yet another Biblical verse! Numerous other scholars have also suggested that this verse be discarded from being attributed to the lips of Jesus. However, the scholars that have thus far been quoted sufficiently satisfy our point.

    Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:”This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Qur’an, 2:79)

    References:

    [1] Misha’al ibn Abdullah. What Did Jesus Really Say?(1996). Islamic Assembly of North America. p. 26

    [2]http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN201BOOKIntros.htm#matthew

    [3] Stendahl, Krister. Peake’s Commentary on the Bible, p. 798

    [4] The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, p. 2637

    [5] The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary(1996). pp. 1179

    [6] The Jerusalem Bible, 1966, p. 64

    [7] Funk, Robert W. , Hoover, Roy W. , & the Jesus Seminar, The Five Gospels, p. 270

    [8] Graham N. Stanton. The Gospels and Jesus(1989). New York: Oxford University Press. p.76

  31. Ibn Anwar says:

    Nur el-Masih ben Haq said:
    “3. Yet again, why have the over one hundred Qur’anic verses forgotten by Uthman been named al-Hadith al-Quds by some scholars later? Did Allah ever indicate that some of His words should be the Qur’an while some should be Hadith Quds? Were the so-called Hadith al-Quds so named in the time of Prophet Muhammad or was the term invented to cover up the scandal of omission of the over one hundred verses from the Qur’an? And why is it that instead of admitting the fact that during the compilation of the Qur’an, over 100 verses were forgotten instead of fabricating a name for them and dubiously rationalizing the scandal?”

    My reply:
    I challenge you to produce a single authentic source that says Khalifah Uthman bin Affan forgot over 100 verses and they were later named hadith qudsi by scholars as you have alleged. For you to even mention Uthman’s name shows that you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. The standardisation process that took place during Uthman’s caliphate was the direct responsibility of Zayd bin Thabit, Abdullah bin al-Zubayr, Sa’id bin al-‘As and Abdul Rahman bin al-Harith bin Hisham as charged by the Khalifah. This is mentioned by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani in his magnum opus Fathul Bari and also in Ibn Ibn Abi Dawud. I would suggest that you get a copy of the recently published ‘The History of the Qur’anic Text: From Revelation to Compilation, A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments’ by Professor M.M. Azami before you attempt to go any further on this subject that you have no knowledge of.

  32. mrk says:

    oh ye silly SALBTIAN,

    “You said:
    “your god came down as animal(lamb)/human in the form of a yahoodi.”
    I say:
    You are completely ignorant about INCARNATION. Adoption of different nature happens in the spiritual world.”

    you are a complete ass hole for not getting the point. THE POINT was that your god in spirit and in flesh FORM HAVE A OBSESSION with a national country , you dumb ass THat was THE POINT. why didn’ jesus, for example become an african and deliver the message to the jews as an african? DON’T forget your recent attack on the qur’aan which assumed that muhammad was sent ONLY to the arabs. in both old and new there is clear obsession with jews and israel, but when christianity fails to kristianise israel it runs off somewhere else.

    and you are silly SALBtian for NOT CLICKING ON the links i provided. the links i provided address the crap you are uttering. LOL ,even after the spiritual “fusion” the deciples and the brethren are SHOCKED that salvation is ALSO (SEE ALSO? ) for the GENTILES. were these ASSISTANTS for your flesh / spiritual god DIM WITS? The QUR’AAN refers to the real ones as hawaari3een, not as they are protrayed in the goshpels = dim wits

    ” Check your Qur’an, the angels sent to Prophet Lut assumed perfect nature of human being; when angel Jibril was sent to Maryam he assumed perfect nature of human being.”

    and in hinduism when god communicated to the animal world he became a talking monkey. okay, jibreel APPEARED AS A MAN, but in your faggoty religion your god is 100 PERCENT man . SEE THE freakin DIFFERENCE? AND HOW DOES THIS LEND SUPPORT TO YOUR PAGAN IDEA THAT GOD CAN COME DOWN IN THE form of 100 PERCENT man?

    “All these is to ease communications and interactions between entities of varying levels.”

    go to the LINK and see how “varying levels” couldn’t even get BASIC IDEA through the deciples and the apostles head. maybe your god should have gone around in flesh form ,AFTER his ressurection, and informed jerusalem /israel about how lovely it is to sit with pig eating gentiles on the SAME table?

    “The tradition is, when a spiritual being is sent to human beings for on very serious mission, the former assumed the perfect nature of the later for easy interaction.”

    and this has BEEN ADDRESSED you DIM WIT.just do everyone a favour and CLICK on the links to see that your god in DIFFERENT forms couldn’t get BASIC INFORMATION through to the heads of your beloved deciples. so you’re crap argument fails. and GOD WHO HAS POWER over everything does not need to become FLESH AND BLOOD ,HE can rip the earth and REVEAL HIS TRUE NATURE AND ALLOW the human the ability to see HIM by giving him (human) new sight.

    “Allah says in the Qur’an 6:9, “Had We appointed an ANGEL our messenger, We ASSUREDLY had made him LIKE A MAN SO THAT HE MIGHT SPEAK TO (associate with) MEN….”

    this ayah KILLS your different levels of communication argument because the COMPLETE ayah says,

    Sahih International: And if We had made him an angel, We would have made him [appear as] a man, and We would have covered them with that in which they cover themselves.

    WHAT WERE THEY COVERING THEMSELVES WITH ?

    THE salbtian SAID,”The tradition is, when a spiritual being is sent to human beings for on very serious mission, the former assumed the perfect nature of the later for easy interaction”

    BUT THE QUR’AAN IS ARGUING THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE YOU DIM WIT.

    Shakir: And if We had made him angel, We would certainly have made him a man, and We would certainly have made CONFUSED to them what they make confused.

    “I say:
    You are com fusing the INCARNATED Jesus with Jesus in his divine state. ”

    YOU say? say what you? quote pauline gibberish? before your incarnated jesus flew to the sky wasn’t he in flesh foRm FOR 40 DAYS with his DECIPLES? so in those 40 days he couldn’t go out to israel and sit with pagans and gentiles and eat with them on the same table ?
    WAS he SACRED ? did Muhammad HIDE behind his deciples and tell them to go to do BATTLE alone?

    “Use your common sense. Did Jesus incarnate to demonstrate an ideal human being or God? The entire processes in his mission were intended for the humans to emulate. If he had continued to display divinity after the incarnation, then what is the incarnation for? Come on use your brain!”

    WTF are you talking about? in flesh for 40 days hanging around with his deciples. peter sometime later needs another VISION to tell the JEWISH kristians that it is OKAY TO EAT WITH NON-JEWS? what is so hard for you to understand? why didn’t peter just quote a saying from jezuz? or tell them that he (jezuz) eat with pig eating gentiles?

    and look at your disgusting blasphemy
    how do you communicate that you’re a god by weeping, taking leak, excreting? how do you communicate this idea?

    actually how are you a god when you’re doing all these things? did you relinquish your powers when you went to excrete?

    “You of course know that I don’t worship any ANIMAL GOD.”
    so tell me what happen to the 100 percent flesh and blood of your god? is it conjoined to the trinity and doesn’t that flesh and blood represent lamb? so you do worship an animal. methaphorically speaking.

    “You on the other hand worship a fetish pagan stone (al-Hajr al-Aswad).”

    and isn’t there a love traingle going on in the trinity? i mean the father abusing his son to receive appeasement? trinitarian child sexual abuse to receive satisfaction? what about crosses? aren’t crosses which are symbols for death and destruction part of your pagan religion? don’t you need crosses to get high? and how about incarnation isn’t that thebelief of old pagans before christianity came on the scene? name one muslim who uses THE HAJJARA AS AN intermediary to COMMUNICATE WITH GOD? name one MUSLIM who uses it like fristian uses the salb to receive spiritual feeling? use an item of death and destruction to receive spiritual high. nur al mushrik would you use electricity if your god had been ELECTROCUTED ?

    “Don’t you know that Hajr Aswad was adopted by Islam as a compromise to lure the pagans?”

    no i didn’t know that, but letting an animal go into the wilderness so it could rot and die in sun shine was pagan practice before the old testament adopted it.

    and you’re an idiot. the muslims JUST DESTROYED THEIRE FAVOURITE IDOLS YOU STUPID ass hole. WHY WOULD THAT LURE THEM in? they would be disgusted and angry with the muslim actions of destroying the idols.and MAKING THE BAYT FOR ONE GOD ALONE WOULD BE no ‘luring game’

    “And better watch what you say about Jesus, otherwise some Islamist may declare rajam on you for apostasy. ”

    HOW CAN THEY DECLARE ME AN APOSTATE WHEN THIS WEBSITE UNVEILING christianity IS DISSECTING THE NEWTESTAMENT PAULINe jesus? HOW CAN THEY ACCUSE ME OF APOSTACY?

    • mrk says:

      i apologise for swearing on your blog brother ibn anwar. i think i need to take anger management classes.

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        Completely understandable akhi. He asked for it. The idiot worships a man who went through the birth canal and to avoid this kind of embarrassing fact he disses us about hajar al-aswad. It is a sad case of a wannabe hindu trying to accuse monotheists of idolatry.

    • mrk says:

      “Shakir: And if We had made him angel, We would certainly have made him a man, and We would certainly have made CONFUSED to them what they make confused.”

      GOD SAID THAT IF HE DID SEND WHAT THEY HAD REQUESTED THE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN DOOMED.

      REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENed TO THE PEOPLE OF LUT?
      remember the iNSTANT PREGNANCY of mary ?

      the words …make confused…

      we want to see an angel, but what we see is a man, what?
      the man bleeds, the angel doesn’t
      the man fasts, the angel doesn’t
      the man cries, the angel doesn’t

      so they would have continued on with their mockery or claimed that they are being deceived.

      now if the polythiest christian wants to use qur’aan to justify incarnation is he willing to ACCEPT that the FLESH AND BLOOD OF THESE BEINGS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AAN WAS NOT 100 PERCENT FLESH AND BLOOD, BUT ONLY APPEARED TO BE HUMAN?

      • mrk says:

        notice the DECEPTION the fristian is playing?

        human has flesh , blood , veins etc etc etc

        are you telling me that the flesh, blood, veins etc etc were god?

        no, no, no

        the thing dwelling in the FLESH was a god,says the kristian

        but i thought that the spirit material LITERALLY INCARNARTED/morphed into fleshy and BLOODY material

        if your in a robot then you don’t say you have incarnated into a robot rather you say you are in a robot.

        in order for incarnation to take place you have to say something like
        the spirit material MORPHED in to fleshy and bloody material and at the same time RETAINED ALL ITS POWERS.

        but see the game the christian is playing

        he is playing a game of cheat

        when the 100 percent material is getting nail driven through it, the spirit material ISN’T getting nail driven through it, so it defeats the whole purpose of incarnation/morphing / whatever the hell you want to call it.

        christianity is DECEPTION AND EVIL DECEPTION IT IS.
        the religion desperately needs to depend on logic to make its pigs fly, but ta 3lo to what the basic concept islam bought, you don’t NEED LOGIC to understand it.it is EASY TO UNDERSTAND

      • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

        EVEN THE PHYSICAL JESUS WAS SCIENTIFICALLY NOT HUMAN
        It is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to conceive without human sperm and without some form of clonning. The use of Maryam was just to enable we the real human beings see Jesus as one of us of a sort.

      • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

        JESUS HAS GONE BACK TO WHERE HE CAME FROM, GOD
        All the spiritual beings that became perfect men COULD every thing that the normal man does. Eating, sleeping etc.But at the end, they return to their original form. That is why Jesus has gone to God completely with his body. His body was not originally a biological one. It just became PERFECTLY biological for a time being.

    • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

      You said:
      “.. okay, jibreel APPEARED AS A MAN, but in your faggoty religion your god is 100 PERCENT man . SEE THE freakin DIFFERENCE? AND HOW DOES THIS LEND SUPPORT TO YOUR PAGAN IDEA THAT GOD CAN COME DOWN IN THE form of 100 PERCENT man?”

      I say:
      You are still exposing your terrible ignorance about Islamic scriputres. The Qur’an too says the angel that appeared to Maryam assumed PERFECT nature of a man.

      The angels that were sent to Lut too assumed PERFECT nature of humans according to the Qur’an. You better learn Islam and stop embarrassing Muslims. If you are one of those Westerners who are lured to Islam with petro-dollars baits, you better study the religion otherwise your uninformed overzealousness would lead you into attacking Islam by default.

      • mrk says:

        “These are obviously NOT instructions but evaluation/forecasting.”

        see, you are an ass

        “the word is diamerismon and its verbal cognate
        (diamerizo), which means divide, distribute, create disunity, and in
        context, where the word is explicitly contrasted with peace (eirene),
        and the word epi + accusative (“against”) follows, the meaning is
        obviously intrafamily war. ”

        “jesus was hyperbolically evaluating and forecasting the consequences of his ministry for the believers to brace up. ”

        you just stole this explanation from one of your pagan brothers in krishna. look at the DAMN MEANING OF THE WORD your god in flesh USED.

        “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, >
        Itell you, but division

        JUXTAPOSED WITH
        “I have
        come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it > were already
        kindled!

        it is SOMETHING he WISHES TO DO. and it is obvious in order to do it he has to DO THE OPPOSITE of PEACE otherwise DIVISION would NOT BE acheived. how much are you going to twist the words of your fleshy god? how much?

        “the word is diamerismon and its verbal cognate
        (diamerizo), which means divide, distribute, create disunity, and in
        context, where the word is explicitly contrasted with peace (eirene),
        and the word epi + accusative (“against”) follows, the meaning is
        obviously intrafamily war. ”

        he said he is GOING TO DO THAT “DIAMERISMON”
        and that is going to cause splits and that would be KINDLED FIRE
        job done!

      • mrk says:

        “I say:
        You are still exposing your terrible ignorance about Islamic scriputres. The Qur’an too says the angel that appeared to Maryam assumed PERFECT nature of a man.”

        we will see akhee ibn anwars oPInion on what APPEARED to maryam pbuh.

        if i am correct Allah used the WORD DERIVED from the root

        ma tha la

        when you are saying perfect nature you are imposing christian idea of 100 % human and 100
        % god unto the word mathala in surah maryam

        it (ruh) is from the POINT OF VIEW of maryam pbuh

        BUT HOW IN ANYWAY THIS PROVES THAT THE ITEM (RUH) ITSELF IS 100 PERCENT GENUINE FLESH AND BLOOD?

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        Nur El-Masih Ben Haq said:
        You are still exposing your terrible ignorance about Islamic scriputres. The Qur’an too says the angel that appeared to Maryam assumed PERFECT nature of a man.

        The angels that were sent to Lut too assumed PERFECT nature of humans according to the Qur’an. You better learn Islam and stop embarrassing Muslims. If you are one of those Westerners who are lured to Islam with petro-dollars baits, you better study the religion otherwise your uninformed overzealousness would lead you into attacking Islam by default.

        My reply:
        To say that an angel became a man 100% is one thing, but to say that God Himself became 100% man is something completely different. An angel like the human being are both created things, hence both are limited by the very virtue of their being created beings. God on the other hand is an infinite being that is uncreated. The dichotomy between the divine and the created is astoundingly clear. It is inconceivable that the uncreated and unlimited could now become limited and created. It is as inconceivable as saying that God decided to stop being God and utterly changed Himself to something as lowly as an atom and ceases to be infinite. Neither Muslim nor honest Christian will suffer such a notion in our respective faiths. Nur El-Masih Ben Haq claims that the Qur’an speaks of angels who assumed perfect human nature. I challenge him to produce a single passage from the Qur’an that says an angel at any point in time actually became perfectly human 100%. In Nur El-Masih’s clumsy attempt to worship God he has in fact worshiped the created which makes him as idolatrous as any Hindu. What is the difference between his lamb worship and the Hindu’s cow worship except that one has fluffy fur and the other does not?

        Nur el-Masih may be trying to appeal to Surah Maryam(19(, verse 14 which says:
        فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا
        The key terms that are being appealed to are “fatamathala” and “sawiyyan”. The former comes from “mathala” which literally means “likeness”. The second term is “sawiyyan” from “sawy” which literally means well-proportioned. Some translations like the one by mufti taqi Uthmani opt for the word “perfect” for “sawiyyun” which is acceptable in its proper textual meaning. This perfection has to be understood in its correct perspective. The perfect similitude is not both an inward and outward exactness. It is simply the form that resembles exactly like that of a man, hence Taqi Uthmani’s rendering “he took before her the form of a perfect human being”. For example, a king may hire a sculptor to produce a perfect likeness of his person. Upon completing the statue we don’t have another king who is perfectly 100% the same. Rather, we have a form of the king that looks perfectly like him. This is the correct understanding that must be accepted when reading Mufti taqi Uthmani’s translation in light of how his father, Shafi’ Uthmani explains the verse in his Ma’riful Qur’an:
        “It is not given to a human being to see an angel in its real form, because he will be overwhelmed by fright at such an experience. This,indeed is, that happened to The Holy Prophet s.a.w. in the cave of Hira’ on his first encounter with Sayyidina Jibra’il, and again later on. Sayyidina Jibra’il appeared before Sayyidah Maryam in the form of a man, so as not to frighten her.” (Ma’riful Qur’an, Vol. 6, pp. 35)

        The same word سَوِيًّا(sawiyyan) occurs later in the same chapter in verse 43:
        يٰأَبَتِ إِنِّي قَدْ جَآءَنِي مِنَ ٱلْعِلْمِ مَا لَمْ يَأْتِكَ فَٱتَّبِعْنِيۤ أَهْدِكَ صِرَاطاً سَوِيّاً
        Mufti Taqi renders the above as, “My dear father, indeed there has come to me a knowledge that has not come to you; so, follow me, and I shall lead you to a straight path.” Notice that he does not use the word perfect for “sawiyyan” here. Why? Because linguistically, the semantic essence of “sawiyyan” is not “perfection”, but rather well-proportioned. Other translators opt for “even” as its choice for the word. The common word used for perfect in Arabic is كامل(kamil).

        Muhammad Asad renders the verse as, “We sent unto her Our angel of revelation, who appeared to her in the shape of a well-made human being.” He then explains it in the following manner:
        “Since -as is implied in 6:9 – mortals cannot perceive an angel in his true manifestation, God caused himto appear to Mary “in the shape of a well-made human being”, i.e., in a shape accessible to her perception.” (Asad, M. (2008). The Message of the Qur’an. The Book Foundation: pp. 585)

        In conclusion, the likeness that the angel appeared in was physical in nature. It was the facade that looked perfectly human, but the being itself did not actually become a true human being. I extend my challenge once more to Nur El-Masih to produce a single passage in the Qur’an which says that angels became 100% human at any point in time. Rest assured that he will not be able to do so till the day he dies.

  33. Ibn Anwar says:

    By the way Mrk, haven’t you heard of Christians using “Jesus'” foreskin for barakah? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce

  34. mrk says:

    ” you are one of those Westerners who are lured to Islam with petro-dollars baits, ”

    and what about walid shoebat , you son of ******?

    he left islam so he can lick evangelical christian backside and make lots of money

    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/201.....ity-bucks/

    i swear to God this guy reminds me of paul . do you see a common pattern between these evangelists. they hated israel, they bombed israel, then , according to the jews “mamZER” appeared to them and then they started licking israeli backside. funny orthODOX JEWISH interpretation of yhwh didn’t appear to him.

    EXPOSED EXPOSED EXPOSED EXPOSED EXPOSED EXPOSED

  35. Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

    MRK, CAN’T YOU USE YOUR BRAIN? LIKE I SAID, JESUS WAS MERELY FORECASTING AND EVALUATING. THE FOLLOWING ARE TYPICAL EXAMPLE OF INSTRUCTIONS.

    Quran (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

    Quran (9:111) – “Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: apromise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”

    Quran (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”

    Quraan (9:5). “fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?”

    Quran (9:41) – “Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.”

    Quran (9:73) – “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”

    Quran (9:88) – “But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.”

    Quran (66:9) – “O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.”

    Quran (61:9): “He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist.”

    Quran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

    Quran (2:244) – “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”

    Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

    Quran (25:52) – “Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness…”

    Quran (47:3-4) – “Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similtudes. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,”

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      The following are typical examples of instructions.

      1. “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

      2. “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”(Luke 19:27)

      What Christian commentators have understood from this text is that after the ‘period of grace’ has ended Jesus will return to wage war against those who refuse him and call for their deaths. As Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary says, “bring hither, &c.-(Compare 1Sa 15:32, 33). Referring to the awful destruction of Jerusalem, but pointing to the final destruction of all that are found in open rebellion against Christ.” [1]

      Let’s have a look at the passage they have asked us to compare with Luke 19:27.

      “Then Samuel said, “Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites.” Agag came to him confidently, thinking, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.” But Samuel said, “As your sword has made women childless, so will your mother be childless among women.” And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal.” (1 Samuel 32-33)

      The same is mentioned by Matthew Henry in his commentary, “Bring them hither, to have their frivolous pleas overruled, and to receive sentence according to their merits. Bring them, and slay them before me, as Agag before Samuel.”

      “19:27. In contrast with the two servants who had axpected the king’s return, the enemies of the king were put to the death in the king’s presence. The analogy of this parable was clear to Jesus’ hearers. Jesus was going away to receive a kingship.” [2]
      What the above means is that Jesus will kill or order the killing of those who do not recognise him as king just like the analogy in Luke 19 shows.

      The commentator Adam Clarke differs from other Christian commentaries in that he proposes the slaying mentioned by Jesus should occur shortly after Jesus said those words in verse 27.

      “Those mine enemies… bring hither. The Jews, whom I shall shortly slay by the sword of the Romans.” [3]

      [1] Philip W. Comfort. New Commentary on the Whole Bible(1990). Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. p. 213

      [2] John F. Walvrood, Roy B. Zuck. The Bible Knowledge Commentary(1983). USA: Victor Books. p. 253

      [3] The Bethany Parallel Commentary on the New Testament(1983). Minneapolis, Minnesota. p. 466

      3. “Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.” (2 John 1:9-10)

      4. Now kill all the children and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

      5. “Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.”(Ezekiel 9:5-7)

      6. “You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. “As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem,” says the LORD. “Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy,” says the LORD. “I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

      7. “Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. “(Isaiah 13:15-18)

      8. “This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ ” (1 Samuel 15:2-3)

      9. “When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. ” (Joshua 6:20-21)

      10. “The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon.” (Judges 20:48)

      11. Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

      12. All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)

      13. They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

      14. If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through(with a sword). (Zechariah 13:3)

      15. Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

      16. But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

      17. “One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. ” (Leviticus 24:10-16)

      18. “Suppose someone secretly entices you—even your brother, your son or daughter, your beloved wife, or your closest friend—and says, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known. They might suggest that you worship the gods of peoples who live nearby or who come from the ends of the earth. But do not give in or listen. Have no pity, and do not spare or protect them. You must put them to death! Strike the first blow yourself, and then all the people must join in. Stone the guilty ones to death because they have tried to draw you away from the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of slavery.” (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

      19. “When you begin living in the towns the Lord your God is giving you, you may hear that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy[b] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. (Deuteronomy 13: 12-16)

      20. “When you begin living in the towns the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman among you might do evil in the sight of the Lord your God and violate the covenant. For instance, they might serve other gods or worship the sun, the moon, or any of the stars—the forces of heaven—which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then the man or woman who has committed such an evil act must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.” (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

      21. Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’ Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” (2 Samuel 12:11-14)

      22. For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51)

      23. The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15)

      24. And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because YHWH had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before YHWH, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20)

      25. Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)

      26. The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16)

      27. Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10)

      28. (Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, “All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came. He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29)

      29. Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22)

      30. Then, with Micah’s idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel’s son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29)

      31. Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)

      Need I quote more?

      • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

        MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE EITHER VIOLENT OR PEACEFUL ACCORDING TO THE TEACHING OF THEIR SCRIPTURES.

        You said:
        ‘1. “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.” (Luke 14:26)’
        ‘2. “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”(Luke 19:27)’
        I say:
        In Luke 14:26, there is NO instruction to kill ANY one. It is only talking about preference between Jesus and other dear relationships.
        In Luke 19:27, Jesus was giving a PARABLE. It is The Parable of Ten Minas. It starts from verse 11.
        MISQUPTING OLD TESTAMENT OUT OF CONTEXT
        I have noticed also that Ibn Anwar has misquoted Old Testament out of context. In all his quotes, he has NOT been able to cite any verse in which God instructed believers to convert unbelievers by war as shown in the Qur’an.
        Ibn Anwar pitifully cited instances of national wars waged by the Jews. He forgot that war is part of human history and EVERY nation is directly involved. The other quotations of Ibn Anwar have to do with punishment for various sins. NON HAS ANYTHING to do with converting non believers by force. In fact even by that Old Testament Standard:

        BIBLICALLY A WARIOR IS TOO UNCLEAN TO BUILD A PLACE OF WARSHIP, EVEN IF HE WAGED ONLY PROVOKED WARS

        1 Chronicles 22:8
        8But the word of the LORD came to me, saying,(A) ‘You have shed much blood and have waged great wars. You shall not build a house to my name, because you have shed so much blood before me on the earth.

        THE FOLLOWING ARE OTHER OLD TESTAMENT PASSAGES THAT ARE REASONS WHY CHRISTIANS ARE MUCH MORE PEACEFUL THAN THE MUSLIMS.

        Psalm 34:14

        14 Turn from evil and do good;
        seek peace and pursue it.

        Psalm 37:37
        37 Consider the blameless, observe the upright;
        a future awaits those who seek peace.[a]

        1 Chronicles 28:3
        3But God said to me,(A) ‘You may not build a house for my name, for you are a man of war and have shed blood.’

        Proverbs 25:21
        21 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
        if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.

        Exodus 23:4-5
        4 “If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. 5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it. “

        Exodus 23:6-7
        6 “Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits. 7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
        Exodus 23:8-9
        8 “Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the innocent.
        9 “Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.

        Exodus 20:16-17
        16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
        17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
        Amos 5:21-24
        21 “I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
        your assemblies are a stench to me.
        22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
        I will not accept them.
        Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
        I will have no regard for them.
        23 Away with the noise of your songs!
        I will not listen to the music of your harps.
        24 But let justice roll on like a river,
        righteousness like a never-failing stream!

        Isaiah 2:4

        4 He will judge between the nations
        and will settle disputes for many peoples.
        They will beat their swords into plowshares
        and their spears into pruning hooks.
        Nation will not take up sword against nation,
        nor will they train for war anymore.

        Ibn Anwar, I have shown you the New Testament instructions for peace. In any case, all over the world and on daily basis Muslims rampantly kill one another and others due to how they understand the true (rather than the taqiyya) interpretation of the jihad verses.

      • mrk says:

        assalamualaykum brother, how are you?

        i have heard that the division verses were created for the reasons because christians were divided amongst each other and dissing their family for ANOTHER “christianfamily” so they put in jesus’ mouth “i have come to bring division” in reality it is the christian who is writing in a time where christians are already DIVIDED.

        i quote:

        “in > light of the context in luke and mat above ,WHy can’t families >
        argue that jesus’s meassage is not “healthy” for the family member >
        who follows his (jesus’s) message? i see in the verses that jesus >
        WANTS to CAUSE division if he is rejectED.just imagine a trinitarian
        paul preeching his version of judaism in a orthodox jewish family. ”

        brother ISN’T THIS exactly what the islamphobes say about islam, that it isn’t a healthy religion for society? now isn’t it fair to say that jesus or whoever wrote the division passage wanted to divided familes cause interfamily war for support of another “christian family” so such a thing would be UNHEALTHY for the jews and pagans, right?

        quote:
        This is a Christian invention created after the fact to make members,
        who found themselves in exactly the situation you describe, feel good
        about themselves and thus not give in to peer pressure and remain in
        the “Christian” family instead. Christians deliberately wanted to
        destroy families if they had to, in order to grow and maintain their
        fictional family. In practice, they preferred to convert whole
        families (Acts), or keep converts in mixed families without breaking
        them up (Paul), but reality intervened and they had to be more
        confrontational. I don’t know what apologetic you have in mind that
        plays on the Greek, but the word is diamerismon and its verbal cognate(diamerizo), which means divide, distribute, create disunity, and in context, where the word is explicitly contrasted with peace (eirene),and the word epi + accusative (“against”) follows, the meaning isobviously intrafamily war.

        Christians were dissing their family religions and thus putting the
        family in spiritual peril, and they were diverting resources to an
        outside cult (another “family”) instead of diverting those resources
        to their own family, and both acts were an overt disobedience to the
        normally expected acceptance of the head-of- household’s authority
        (even the ten commandments condemn doing that).

  36. mrk says:

    “jESUS HAS GONE BACK TO WHERE HE CAME FROM, GOD
    All the spiritual beings that became perfect men COULD every thing that the normal man does. Eating, sleeping etc.But at the end, they return to their original form. That is why Jesus has gone to God completely with his body. His body was not originally a biological one. It just became PERFECTLY biological for a time being.”

    LOL , jesus EAT FISH before he went to god , you arse hole you are exposing yourself again. he eat you arse hole.so did he also go to toilet before he flew to heaven? was the excreted item divine or part of divine?

    • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

      Jesus had to act human if he was really INCARNATED. The reality of his going to the toilete, eating, sleeping and hunger might not necessarily be like ours. In any case, he is back to where he came from!!

      • mrk says:

        so then jesus was a deceiving prophet! when he was in pain his other multi personality disorder or the god glued to his flesh wasn’t in pain. it was all a dirty show deceving the jews. so marcionite kristians were RIGHT ALL ALONG. jesus was laughing while his flesh was hanging and crying . now tell me something, what the phuck was the point of the incarnation when god in flesh did not feel mothers milk or the physical pain of crucifixion? lets say that instead of crucifxion they (the romans ) forcefully penetrated a jewish woman claiming to be god in woman flesh, so it would be like a gang bang. i am asking THE REAL GOD to forgive me, but if your god is so obsessed with pain then pain can be acheived in many ways. so lets assume that the woman was forcefully penetrated, now if she relenquished all her powers and the spirit part of her didn’t feel the PHYSICAL deflowering of roman gang bang , then what was the point of the incarnation ? a baby is burnt to death, YOU SERIOUSLY telling me that what happen to jesus is COMPARABLE to what happen to the baby who would GENUINELY FEEL PAIN?

        like i said before, YOU HAVE to redefine what incarnation means. you have to believe that the spirit part literally became flesh/morphed into flesh. if jesus going to the bathroom is not like ours then how do you know that him feeling guilt is like ours?

        your god is the BIGGEST LIAR AND DECIEVER KNOWN TO MAN. SCAM AND FRAUDSTER. WHEN you god was in synagogues did he mask his speeches with parabolic GIBBERISH in order to prevent the hearers from understanding that he is yhwh in flesh? remember according to the new testament the romans beat the chit out of your god and were LAUGING their asses off. now it is understandable that a deceving god is only “acting” like you said. a play on stage. because his other form is free from any type of pain and suffering.

  37. Ibn Anwar says:

    Nur el-Masih Ben Haq said:
    You said:
    ‘1. “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.” (Luke 14:26)’
    ‘2. “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”(Luke 19:27)’
    I say:
    In Luke 14:26, there is NO instruction to kill ANY one. It is only talking about preference between Jesus and other dear relationships.
    In Luke 19:27, Jesus was giving a PARABLE. It is The Parable of Ten Minas. It starts from verse 11.

    My reply:
    Did I claim that Luke 14:26 demands killing? Nur…you are horribly ill equipped to debate anyone here. Give it up. Nur…you gotta be kidding me. Hate is never a synonym for preference. It says specifically that if you do not hate this person and that person you cannot be my disciple. The word used there is ‘miseo’ which can only mean hate.
    Luke 19:27 is just a parable? Even if I were to grant you that it was a parable, how does that negate the fact that in the parable the King orders the killing of those who rebel against him? Many Christian interpreters such as the ones that I cited say that Jesus was talking about himself. Let’s produce them once more:
    What Christian commentators have understood from this text is that after the ‘period of grace’ has ended Jesus will return to wage war against those who refuse him and call for their deaths. As Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary says, “bring hither, &c.-(Compare 1Sa 15:32, 33). Referring to the awful destruction of Jerusalem, but pointing to the final destruction of all that are found in open rebellion against Christ.” [1]

    Let’s have a look at the passage they have asked us to compare with Luke 19:27.

    “Then Samuel said, “Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites.” Agag came to him confidently, thinking, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.” But Samuel said, “As your sword has made women childless, so will your mother be childless among women.” And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal.” (1 Samuel 32-33)

    The same is mentioned by Matthew Henry in his commentary, “Bring them hither, to have their frivolous pleas overruled, and to receive sentence according to their merits. Bring them, and slay them before me, as Agag before Samuel.”

    “19:27. In contrast with the two servants who had axpected the king’s return, the enemies of the king were put to the death in the king’s presence. The analogy of this parable was clear to Jesus’ hearers. Jesus was going away to receive a kingship.” [2]
    What the above means is that Jesus will kill or order the killing of those who do not recognise him as king just like the analogy in Luke 19 shows.

    The commentator Adam Clarke differs from other Christian commentaries in that he proposes the slaying mentioned by Jesus should occur shortly after Jesus said those words in verse 27.

    “Those mine enemies… bring hither. The Jews, whom I shall shortly slay by the sword of the Romans.” [3]

    [1] Philip W. Comfort. New Commentary on the Whole Bible(1990). Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. p. 213

    [2] John F. Walvrood, Roy B. Zuck. The Bible Knowledge Commentary(1983). USA: Victor Books. p. 253

    [3] The Bethany Parallel Commentary on the New Testament(1983). Minneapolis, Minnesota. p. 466

    Nur el-Masih ben Haq said:
    THE FOLLOWING ARE OTHER OLD TESTAMENT PASSAGES THAT ARE REASONS WHY CHRISTIANS ARE MUCH MORE PEACEFUL THAN THE MUSLIMS.

    My reply:
    3,000,000 Vietnamese People murdered over 30years of US Aggression

    Well over 300,000 Japanese massacred when the US dropped nuclear bombs on the urban civilian areas of Nagasaki and Hiroshima and firebombed Tokiyo

    More than 4,000 innocent civilians killed in Panama during the US invasion in 1989

    Over 500,000 people were killed in Laos when America subjected civilians to “secret bombing” from 1964 to 1973, dropping over two million tons of bombs on the country. Over one fourth of the population also became refugees

    100,000 people were murdered in South Korea prior to the Korean War by a brutal repression supported by US forces in 1945. This includes between 30,000 and 40,000 killed during the suppression of a peasant revolt on Cheju Island

    Up to 4,500,000 Koreans were killed from 1951 to 1953 during America’s massive slaughter in the Korean War

    200,000 were murdered when the Philippines were conquered by American forces. This took place just over 100 years ago

    23,000 people were slaughtered in Taiwan by US-backed, trained, equipped, and funded forces (Chiang’s Nationalist army) during the late 1940s

    700,000 Indonesians (mostly landless peasants) were murdered in 1965 when the US armed and supported General Suharto

    200,000 were slaughtered in East Timor in 1975 by General Suharto with US support

    600,000 civilians were killed in Cambodia by US bombing between 1969 and 1975

    750,000 civilians were driven from their homes in East Timor by Indonesian forces in 1999 and 10,000 were killed

    Over 1,700,000 Iraqis have been killed by US bombings and sanctions, mostly women and children

    Over 1,000,000 lives were lost during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s in which the US used direct force and supported Hussein and Iraq

    45,000 people were killed in South Lebanon since 1982 by Israel, always armed and supported by the US

    Thousands have been killed in Palestine and millions (in both Palestine and Lebanon) were made refugees by US-backed Israel

    Over 75,000 civilians were killed and over one million refugees were created in El Salvador from 1980 to 1994 when the US intensely supported the efforts of a brutal regime and its death squads to eliminate a popular uprising

    40,000 civilians were killed by the US-backed National Guard in Nicaragua over the course of almost 50 years

    30,000 lives were killed by the US contras in Nicaragua from 1979 to 1989

    200,000 Guatemalans were slaughtered from 1960-1990s by a military apparatus trained, armed, funded, and assisted by America

    Over 35,000 Colombian civilians have been killed during the US-supported Columbian war against left-wing rebels

    Over 3,000 were killed and countless others injured by US interventions in Cuba

    Up to 10,000 more Somalians were killed by US troops during America’s “humanitarian mission” in 1993

    1,500,000 were killed between 1980 and 1988 in southern Africa by the US-armed South Africa.

    ***Both world war one and two were overwhelmingly participated and perpetuated by Christians and other non-Muslim groups.

    You have produced a meager eight passages that exhort peace as opposed to more than thirty passages that I cited that clearly exhort violence and mass killings. Some of those passages instruct genocide and the slaughter of babies and children. You can never produce a single Qur’anic verse that can possible come close to such horrid instructions. You haven’t a single leg to stand upon. In less than 10 years American Christian soldiers dispatched with Christian chaplains to each military base in Afghanistan and Iraq under the motto “in God we trust” have caused the deaths of more than 1.5 million Muslims. Christians are only peaceful when they have no political power. Whenever they do have actual political power and a strong military they will not hesitate to exercise them brutally as is evidently clear throughout history as Gore Vidal says, “More people have been killed in the name of Jesus Christ than any other name in the history of the world.”

    • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

      DON’T PRETEND NOT TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SECULAR & RELIGIOUS WARS
      It is a pity that since you can’t satisfactorily link Christians with any religious war meant to convert people by force etc, you resorted to confusing territorial and national wars waged by Christian nations with Jihad waged by the Muslims.
      The fact is even Muslims are alarmingly killed on daily bases by fellow Muslims — sometimes even in the mosques. The number of Muslims killed by fellow Muslims is much higher than the number of Muslims killed by non-Muslims. Every day Muslims and Christians are alarmingly killed in the name of Allah!!

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        It is you who is pretending. You are pretending that the wars that I mentioned are purely secular wars that are not motivated by Christian religious ideology or belief. I have already proved this excuse false when I said that American Christian soldiers are dispatched along with chaplains who are religious ministers at every base and go against the enemy under the single slogan “in God we trust”. Which God? The Hindu God? The Taoist God? It is none other than the Christian God. If the Holy Spirit perpetually guides the Christian(as taught by both Catholics and Protestants) and you have admitted that the wars are waged by Christian nations then it follows that the Christian ideology is as much to be blamed as anything else. If so called Christian values that preach peace and love everywhere the Christian soldiers and leaders would not have gone to war in the first place. They would rebuke war and turn the other cheek when they are attacked. They would have instead blessed Osama and pray for him. I don’t know a single Christian church who has actually blessed Osama. Apparently, Christians are ashamed of Jesus’ teachings and do not hesitate to simply chuck them aside as worthless and impractical. You said, “It is a pity that since you can’t satisfactorily link Christians with any religious war meant to convert people by force.” Firstly, Osama Bin Laden who headed al-Qaeda was trained and funded by Christian America through its special branch, the CIA. Secondly, Osama has never called for the conversion of Christians to Islam. Rather, he has demanded that Christian nations get out of the middle east and stop meddling with Muslim(specifically Arab) affairs. You said, “The fact is even Muslims are alarmingly killed on daily bases by fellow Muslims — sometimes even in the mosques.” None of the verses that you cited from the Qur’an calls for Muslims to fight against Muslims. Every single one of those verses taken in their proper contexts were meant for the aggressive disbeliever who fought against the believers and others allied to them. There are many reasons why Muslims are fighting against other Muslims in the middle east. It is not simply and crudely because of the sunni-shia divide. If it was that Iran would have been attacked by “terrorists” a long time ago. There isn’t a single recorded sunni terrorist attack on Iran or its interests. In Lebanon both sunni and shia have political mileage, yet neither of them go around killing each other. The same goes to Syria and elsewhere. Yet you have Iraq in your mind. Zarqawi was reportedly anti-Shi’a and ordered attacks on them. Have a look at Zarqawi’s record. He was put in prison in Jordan and other places due to criminal activity, alcoholism etc. These are not the trade marks of a true believer who practices his faith. Why are some of the sunnis attack the shi’as and vice versa in Iraq? If you go back to a time when Saddam was still in power no such fighting transpired. It transpires now because there is a power struggle and the sunnis perceive the shi’as as American puppets working directly for American interests that are seen as colonialist in nature. Muslim scholars have been engagingly condemning these atrocious actions that have absolutely no place in Islam. Nur el-Masih Ben Haq claimed that “The number of Muslims killed by fellow Muslims is much higher than the number of Muslims killed by non-Muslims”. This is total falsehood and misinformation. Iraq was sanctioned under the auspices of the United Nations headed by the United States which caused the deaths of over 100 000 children and babies. If one were to combine all the attacks of so called “Muslim terrorists”, suicide attacks and civil unrest between Muslims it will still not reach the number of deaths caused by Christian America and its allies in a span of 11 years due to the economic sanctions. That’s not even counting the number of deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere. In America one hears about children bring automatic machine guns to schools and killing their teachers and fellow students. This may take place in Muslim lands too. But those occurrences in Muslim lands take place in a war torn context. It is understandable(yet unacceptable) that children are turned violent when they are daily bombarded with violence. Anyone will lose their mental composure and react. But what about America? Is it war torn? It is supposed to be free of war, yet the streets are not safe and Christian children turn violent and shoot their teachers and classmates. Let’s have a look at a rather interesting article.

        By Dr Javed Jamil, Director, International Centre for Applied Islamics, India

        Organized violence

        The Western Media have been aggressively singling out Muslims as the source of violence, but the facts speak to the contrary. It has already been seen that the level of almost all crimes is much less in Muslim countries than in most of the other countries. Let us now glance through the history of last 100-150 years to find, which countries indulged in biggest massacres, wars and civil wars. According to the website copyrighted by Pierie Scruff, which gives the statistics of wars and civil wars, about 160 million people died in wars in the 20th century. The break-up of these wars and people dying in each of them is as follows:

        Wars in last 150 years

        1860-65: American civil war (360,000)
        1886-1908: Belgium-Congo Free State (3 million)
        1899-02: British-Boer war (100,000)
        1904: Germany Vs Namibia (65,000)
        1904-05: Japan Vs Russia (150,000)
        1910-20: Mexican revolution (250,000)
        1911: Chinese Revolution (2.4 million)
        1911-12: Italian-Ottoman war (20,000)
        1912-13: Balkan wars (150,000)
        1915: the Ottoman empire slaughters Armenians (1.2 million)
        1914-18: World War I (8 million)
        1917-21: Soviet revolution (5 million)
        1928-37: Chinese civil war (2 million)
        1931: Japanese Manchurian War (1.1 million)
        1934: Mao’s Long March (170,000)
        1936: Italy’s invasion of Ethiopia (200,000)
        1936-37: Stalin’s purges (13 million)
        1936-39: Spanish civil war (600,000)
        1939-45: World War II (55 million) including holocaust and Chinese revolution
        1946-49: Chinese civil war (1.2 million)
        1946-49: Greek civil war (50,000)

        1947: Partition of India and Pakistan (1 million)
        1948-1973: Arab-Israeli wars (70,000)
        1948-: Kashmir’s civil war (40,000)
        1949-: Indian Muslims Vs Hindus (20,000)
        1950-53: Korean war (4 million)
        1954-62: French-Algerian war (1 million)
        1958-61: Mao’s “Great Leap Forward” (30 million)
        1960-90: South Africa Vs Africa National Congress (?)
        1961-2003: Kurds Vs Iraq (180,000)
        1962-75: Mozambique Frelimo Vs Portugal (?)
        1964-73: USA-Vietnam war (3 million)
        1965: second India-Pakistan war over Kashmir
        1965-66: Indonesian civil war (200,000)
        1966-69: Mao’s “Cultural Revolution” (11 million)
        1966-: Colombia’s civil war (31,000)
        1967-70: Nigeria-Biafra civil war (800,000)
        1968-80: Rhodesia’s civil war (?)
        1969-79: Idi Amin, Uganda (300,000)
        1969-02: IRA – Northern Ireland’s civil war (2,000)
        1969-79: Francisco Macias Nguema, Equatorial Guinea (50,000)
        1971: Pakistan-Bangladesh civil war (500,000)
        1972-: Philippines Vs Muslim separatists (120,000)
        1972: Burundi’s civil war (300,000)
        1972-79: Rhodesia/Zimbabwe’s civil war (30,000)
        1974-91: Ethiopian civil war (1,000,000)
        1975-78: Menghitsu, Ethiopia (1.5 million)
        1975-79: Khmer Rouge, Cambodia (1.7 million)
        1975-89: Boat people, Vietnam (250,000)
        1975-90: civil war in Lebanon (40,000)
        1975-87: Laos’ civil war (184,000)
        1975-2002: Angolan civil war (500,000)
        1976-83: Argentina’s military regime (20,000
        1976-93: Mozambique’s civil war (900,000)
        1976-98: Indonesia-East Timor civil war (600,000)
        1976-: Indonesia-Aceh (GAM) civil war (12,000)
        1979: Vietnam-China war (30,000)
        1979-88: the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan (1.3 million)
        1980-88: Iraq-Iran war (1 million)
        1980-92: Sendero Luminoso – Peru’s civil war (69,000)
        1980-92: El Salvador’s civil war (100,000)
        1980-99: Kurds Vs Turkey (35,000)
        1982-90: Hussein Habre, Chad (40,000)
        1983-2002: Sri Lanka’s civil war (64,000)
        1983-2002: Sudanese civil war (2 million)
        1987-: Palestinian Intifada (4,500)
        1988-2001: Afghanistan civil war (400,000)
        1988-2004: Somalia’s civil war (550,000)
        1989-: Liberian civil war (220,000)
        1989-: Uganda Vs Lord’s Resistance Army (30,000)
        1991: Gulf War – large coalition against Iraq to liberate Kuwait (85,000)
        1991-97: Congo’s civil war (800,000)
        1991-2000: Sierra Leone’s civil war (200,000)
        1991-: Russia-Chechnya civil war (200,000)
        1991-94: Armenia-Azerbaijan war (35,000)
        1992-96: Tajikstan’s civil war war (50,000)
        1992-96: Yugoslavia’s civil war (200,000)
        1992-99: Algerian civil war (150,000)
        1993-97: Congo Brazzaville’s civil war (100,000)
        1993-: Burundi’s civil war (200,000)
        1994: Rwanda’s civil war (900,000)
        1995-: Pakistani Sunnis Vs Shiites (1,300)
        1995-: Maoist rebellion in Nepal (10,000)
        1998-: Congo/Zaire’s war – Rwanda and Uganda Vs Zimbabwe, Angola and Namibia (3.8 million)
        1998-2000: Ethiopia-Eritrea war (75,000)
        1999: Kosovo’s liberation war – NATO Vs Serbia (2,000)
        2001: Afghanistan’s liberation war – USA & UK Vs Taliban (25,000)
        2002-: Cote d’Ivoire’s civil war (1,000)
        2003: Iraq’s liberation war – USA, UK and Australia Vs Saddam Hussein (14,000)
        2003-: Sudan Vs Darfur (70,000)
        2003-: Iraq’s civil war (100,000)

        Out of the total number of around 160 million dead, more than 135 million have been killed in or by countries that are now the five big powers of the world, namely China, the US, the UK, France and Russia. The killings by or in Muslim countries form a very small percentage of the total killings, despite the fact that Muslims form about one fifth of the world population.

        If we convert the figures into community-wise break-up, 90% of violence has involved Christians, Buddhists and Atheists. Most of the killings in Muslim countries or regions have been the direct result of foreign interventions. These include the deaths in Afghanistan, as the results of Soviet and American invasions, Iran-Iraq war (which was fought at the behest of the US), and Iraq as the result of American invasions. The biggest pogroms of the history have taken place in Germany, Russia (both Christian countries) and China (Buddhists, other religions, atheists). Stalin and Hitler, two of the biggest killers of all times were Christians; few massacres that have taken place at the behest of Muslim rulers, like Saddam Hussein and Idi Amin, have been by those whose loyalty to their religion was almost negligible. While China and Russia hold the distinction for murdering their own people in maximum numbers for political ends, the credit of killing most people abroad goes to the US, especially during last 60 years. Apart from its role in the killings in the Second World War, it killed about half a million people in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, 3 million people in Vietnam and about 100, 000 people in Iraq. America’s role in Afghan’s struggle against Russia, Iran-Iraq war and Arab-Israeli conflicts is too well known to require elaboration.

        The maximum number of military men killed in wars are also those of the current big powers that waged wars to dominate the world for their own expansionist and commercial ends. See the following table:

        Military Death Toll War Dates
        1 20,000,000 Second World War 1937-45
        2 8,500,000 First World War 1914-18
        3 1,200,000 Korean War 1950-53
        4 1,200,000 Chinese Civil War 1945-49
        5 1,200,000 Vietnam War 1965-73
        6 850,000 Iran-Iraq War 1980-88
        7 800,000 Russian Civil War 1918-21
        8 400,000 Chinese Civil War 1927-37
        9 385,000 French Indochina 1945-54
        10 200,000 Mexican Revolution 1911-20
        10 200,000 Spanish Civil War 1936-39
        12 160,000 French-Algerian War 1954-62
        13 150,000 Afghanistan 1980-89
        14 130,000 Russo-Japanese War 1904-05
        15 100,000 Riffian War 1921-26
        15 100,000 First Sudanese Civil War 1956-72
        15 100,000 Russo-Polish War 1919-20
        15 100,000 Biafran War 1967-70
        19 90,000 Chaco War 1932-35
        20 75,000 Abyssinian War 1935-36

        (Courtesy 1999 Matthew White)

        Contrary to the lie propagated by Western media, Muslims have been subjected to violence by others rather than the vice versa. Russia killed millions of Muslims in Afghanistan, America killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Israel killed thousands in its conflict with Arabs. In all of these resistance movements or liberation struggles, Muslims were killed in very large numbers, while they killed much less. Here is the break-up, for example, of Israel-Arab conflicts, which have always been receiving much attention in the world media:

        Arab -Israeli Wars

        I (1947-49): 6,373 Israeli and 15,000 Arabs die

        II (1956): 231 Israeli and 3,000 Egyptians die

        III (1967): 776 Israeli and 20,000 Arabs die

        IV (1973): 2,688 Israeli and 18,000 Arabs die

        Intifida I (1987-92): 170 Israelis and 1,000 Palestinians

        Intifida II (2000-03): 700 Israelis and 2,000 Palestinians

        After the terrorist attack on Twin Towers, there has been inundation of books and articles trying to prove that Muslims alone are involved in terrorism. We will discuss the causes of the rise of terrorism among Muslims later. But even the propaganda that all the terrorists are Muslims is blatantly false. The history of terrorism in Ireland is several decades old. Several splinter Ireland groups including PIRA, Real IRA and Continuity IRA have indulged in numerous attacks on British targets killing and injuring several thousands of people. Spain has been struggling with its own terrorism. Basque supporters, led by ETA, are fighting for the separation of Basque country from Spain and France. Since 1968, ETA has been involved in several terrorist attacks including the assassination of Luis Carrero Blanco, Prime Minister of Spain, Meliton Manzanas, secret police chief and Santiago Oleaga Elejabarrieta, the CFO of El Diaro Vasco. An assassination attempt was also made on King Juan Carlos of Spain, which failed. Apart from these well-known groups, there are several relatively less known Christian terrorist organizations. These include:

        Christian Identity movement

        Ku Klux Klan (A racist Protestant Christian organisation)

        The Order (1980s-present)

        Orange Volunteers

        Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) (1969-present)

        Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) (1997-present)

        Ulster Defence Association (UDA) (1971-present)

        Red Hand Defenders (1998-present)

        Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) (May 1966-present)

        Lord’s Resistance Army (Christian/Pagan/Muslim) (1987-present) (Uganda)

        Nagaland Rebels (1948-present) (Nagaland)

        India has a long history of terrorist attacks involving Hindus and Sikhs. Sikh militancy in Punjab killed thousands in 1980s. The Government response to the movement culminated in an attack on Golden Temple in which hundreds of armymen and Sikh militants were killed. There have been separatist movements in Eastern India that led to killing of thousands of people in terrorist attacks. Naxalites have been killing people in several parts of India for almost half a century.

        The biggest seat of terrorist violence in the recent history has been Sri Lanka, where Hindu Tamils have been involved in terrorism for more than two decades; about one hundred thousand persons have become victims of this violence. In Nepal, Maoists have slaughtered several thousands in recent years. Maoists have more than 30000 fighters in their ranks and hundreds of thousands of sympathisers. Apart from these, leftist elements have a long history of guerrilla attacks in several parts of the world.

        The so-called International terrorism — anything that involves America becomes “International”— perpetrated by Al-Qaeda has killed less than 5000 people. The war against this terrorism-either directly by US attacks or as a result of attacks by “insurgents” fighting American invaders in Iraq, has killed more than one hundred thousands of innocent Muslims. But for America, only their own people are innocents; their hearts bleed at every single American killed, but their eyes do not shed a drop of tear for thousands of Muslim innocents who lost lives just because a Super Power wanted to dominate their country.

        Thanks to the hate campaign by the media and some politicians, a large number of Americans seem to hate Muslims with the cores of their hearts. Such is the venom that flows down their veins that when some Muslim terrorists are involved in a bomb blast, they would shout, “Look, Muslims are murdering innocents”, and when innocent Muslims get killed, they would mock at them, “all of them deserve to be killed.”

        —end of article—

        Lastly, I have pointed out numerous passages in the Bible where the alleged Loving God Jesus instructed his followers to kill children, babies and commit genocide against opposing tribes and factions. Can any of these stupendously atrocious religious commands be compared to a single one found in the Qur’an? Show me one place in the Qur’an where it allows the killing of innocent children. You will never be able to find it because the Shari’ah is very clear on this matter. You have failed miserably and I pity you for shamelessly pursuing a cause that you can never win.

    • Nur el Masih Ben Haq says:

      WHICH ONES ARE RELIGIOUS WARS?
      You mean you still don’t know the difference between national/territorial wars and religious war? You must be faking ignorance as a we of escape. Whenever Islam or Muslims are accused of thriving on violence, the accusation is inequivocal and not confused with any regular domestic or national/territorial war or crises. Pls grow up Ibn Anwar.

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        Most of them were religious wars in that they were not waged in a vacuum outside the purview of Christian ethics. I have already explained that the wars waged by America the world over was under the SLOGAN “IN GOD WE TRUST”. What God is it that those soldiers trusted as they thrust their bayonets and knives into the belly of the enemy? If you are honest with yourself you will say Jesus. The Serbians killed and murdered the Muslims because they were Christians and the Bosnians were Muslims. The colonial days were garnered by faith in the Church. They went around the world and colonised the “heathens” so as to satisfy the “white man’s burden” which includes the Christianisation of the globe. Did you drop out of school that you did not know these? Let us have a look at the latest Christian carnage and terrorism:

        If you need to know Islam’s stance on terrorism go to my page FATWA ON “TERRORISM” and learn a thing or two before you sully us with your garbage.

      • mrk says:

        you pathetic fristian . religious wars?

        you tell me why did NAZIS post jesus’ NAZISM in john 8:44ON NAZI ROAD SIGNS?BECAUSE most german christians @ that time BELIEVED that their nazi ETHICS were compatible with jesus’ ethics.

        If many Americans think that nazism and jesus’ ethics were
        incompatible, it is because they are not informed about most of
        Christian history. After all, throughout most of Christian history,
        those persecuting heretics and Jews did so in the name of jesus.

        matin luthers 1st point:

        “First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and
        cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lordand Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, blaspheming of his son and of his Christians….”

        Note that Luther says that this is to be done in honor “of our Lord
        and Christendom.” So what makes you think the most Christians
        historically have not thought that killing and burning Jews was
        compatible with Jesus’ words?

        The fact is that what many modern american christians think about
        jesus’ ethics MAY NOT BE representative of what many, or most,
        christians in the last 2000 years have thought about jesus’ ethics
        towards jews and toward those who disagreed with him.

        You might also read Susannah Heschel, The Aryan Jesus: ChristianTheologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany (Princeton University Press, 2008).

        FORGERIES

        “The purpose of the “Pilate Gospels”

        By exonerating Pilate in the death of Jesus, the accounts make the Jews, not just thier leaders, bear all the guilt. The more innocent Pilate is, the more culpable are the Jews. According to some of the legends, Pilate is so innocent that he becomes a devoted believer and follower of Christ. God is therefore angry with the Jews and punishes them for thier crimes against the Son of God.

        These writings were forged in a period that saw heightened animosities between Christians and Jews. Christians realized there would be no rapprochement with the Jews and there was little chance that most Jews would ever come to see the “truth” about Jesus, that he was the messiah of God, not just a lowly crucified criminal. This “truth” then, is what prompted these Christian “false writings.” That is to say, a number of Christian authours chose to tell the truth about the divine Christ and about his wicked enemies the Jews, by forging documents claiming to be by people they weren’t. Chrisitian readers of these documents accepted them at face value as real reports from the time, instead of what they were , forgeries from later periods. The authours intended to deceive thier readers, and thier readers were all too easily deceived. ”

        forged

        page 159

        YOU NEED TO ASK nur bin BS wHY DID THESE christian FORGERS IN THE SECOND CENTURY MAKE LIES AND PUT THEM IN PILATES MOUTH?WHAT ABOUT THE 1ST CENTURY WHERE ORAL SAYING WERE CREATED AND SPREAD LIKE WILD FIRE FROM VILLAGE 2 VILLAGE? WHAT INSPIRED THEM? REMEMBER , QUR’AAN WASN’T EVEN THERE @ THAT TIME, IT WAS YOUR NEW TESTAMENT AND IT WAS the DIFFERENT jeSUS’S IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WHICH GAVE INSPIRATION TO THESE FORGERS.

        on pages 174-175 ehrman talks about UNKNWON christians taking over jewish FORGERIES of the sibylline oracles and christianizing them . he says the oracles were modified by the christian forgers and in them inserted thier own prophecies . the christian forgers tried to fool the readers into believing that prophetess sibyl made prediction about the crucified saviour god .

        about the jews, the forger put into sibyl’s mouth the following

        ISRAEL , with abominable lips and poisonous spittings will give this man blows, ehrman goes onto say that the forger put into sybyl’s mouth … eventual DESTRUCTION of “the Hebrews ” for the evil deed they performed against crist”

        ehrman’s conclusion on 176

        ” As you might imagine, pagans intent attacking Christians knew full well that these oracular “predictions” of the coming of Christ, his activities on earth, his rejection by the Jews, and his vindication were not original to an ancient Sibyl, but had been inserted into these writings or created whole cloth by Christian authors. This is one instance in which unknown forgers among the Christians were rightly suspected.”

        YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT THIS WASN’T NEW TESTAMENT INSPIRED CRIMES?

        YOU TELLING ME THE evangelical FRISTIANS OBSESSED with ARMAGEDDON , WHO FUND ISRAELI TERRORISTS, WHO ARE HAPPY WHEN PALESTINIAN CHILD IS BLOWN TO BITS, WHO CLAIM ” IT IS BETTER TO KILL THE CHILD, OTHERWISE HE WILL GROW UP TO KILL JEWS”

        THESE GUYS ARE NOT INSPIRED BY THE jeSUS in the new TESTAMENT?

        DO YOU KNOW WHAT AN IHOSHIYAH AND MOSHIAYK IS , liar for krist?

        do YOU KNOW?

        lets show u

        “In the T’nach, “saving” is almost always associated with “fighting” or “waging war”…. ”

        DID YOU SEE THAT, LIar for krist? DID YOU SEE “FIGHTING” ?

        moshayiah = a sAvIour

        ihoshayiah = to sAve

        GUESS how these words are used in thier contexts?

        and what do you call jesus? and what will he do to orthodox jews who refuse to believe in him? what will he do to those who reject him? what will he do? as a matter of fact , if jesus was ‘giving love’ to the jews , why they were always on his tale ready to do him over? if his words were always about peace and respecting ones enemy (i don’t call calling people dogs, vipers in PUBLIC respect, but abuse) why did the jews want to finnish him off?

        and what will he do to them when he makes his return which he delayed for 2000 years and counting?

        and how does jesus’ return inspire krisitan fanatics to FUND israeli terrorism against the palestinain people?

        WHY DID THE kristians create forgeries?
        what book inspired them?
        johns books is making pilate look like an angel
        matthew clearly says the jews took responsibility

        question for you nur bin bs

        luke is the only gospel which asks forgiveness for someone

        father forgive them, for they know not what they are doing

        luke is PRO ROMAN AND ANTI jew

        proof:

        Because the work is written TO Gentile Christians, FOR Gentile Christians, ABOUT Gentile Christians.

        Certainly one reason would be Luke’s penchant to paint Romans more positive toward Christianity than Jews. I recommend anyone actually READ Acts and see how many times the author blames “the Jews, the Jews, the Jews” whereas the Roman-established authorities are demonstrated as receptive to what the Christians were saying.

        Much like Josephus painted his Flavian patrons in a positive light, it would certainly conform to the evidence Luke was painting Romans in a positive light in deference to his Patron—Theophilus.

        Luke avoided claiming the Romans persecuted Christians because he wanted Romans to look good—not to avoid possible future persecution.

        “That reason is that powerless groups have often treated their oppressors as if they were benefactors for a variety of pragmatic reasons, e.g., the desire to avoid harsher treatment, the hope of winning acceptance, and the futility of resistance. ”

        “by the time Luke wrote his Gospel and the book of Acts (the late first century), Gentile Christianity even in Judea had moved well beyond its Jewish origins into the pagan Greco-Roman world. The main social issue of Luke’s communities was no longer how they would relate to the Jewish synagogue but rather to the Roman Empire.

        The whole point of Luke/Acts is that Christianity was not a threat to Roman society or rule, and so what we read in Luke and Acts is geared toward that
        understanding. Therefore, Luke has a vested interest in minimizing the Romans’ role in crucifying Jesus to the point of overstating the role of the Jewish authorities, even at the expense of omitting “actual history.” In light of this intent, it is not surprising that Luke, who had Mark in front of him, completely omits all references to Jesus being scourged at Pilate’s command and then mocked by his soldiers. His overriding emphasis is upon Christianity’s compatibility with Roman rule, which he hoped would lessen the likelihood of the empire opposing the churches as a political threat. It’s not that Luke didn’t know about Jesus’ being scourged and mocked and thus left it out; he deliberately omitted it because it potentially undermined his purpose. (In addition to this concern, there is another potential reason for this omission on which we will touch momentarily.)

        IN LIGHT OF ALL THIS INFORMATION it seems lukes gentile jesus is asking forgiveness NOT FOR THE jews but for the romans who beat and crucifIED him

        problems for you nur

        why did matthew omit the forgiveness statement?

        matthew wrote 50 YEARS AFTER THE EVENT, DID n’t he know that jesus asked forgiveness for the jews? if he did , why did he , like an IDIOT , include

        “his blood be upon us an d our children ” and end there?

        why didn’t he omit these words put in to the jews mouth? did the holy ghost god tell matthew that the LINE ABOUT jewish RESPONSIBILITY WILL BE USED by KRISTIANS to forge gospels and KILL JEWS ? killed by whom?

        SO why is the forgiveness statement missing from john, mat, and mark? they had every reason to INCLUDE it, BUT THEY DIDN’T , because they didn’t know of it. and no one will know of it , if he were to read these gospels by themselves.

        for example how does

        “elai elai, why have u forsaken me” mean

        “father forgive them…”

        it don’t mean that.

        who is jesus asking to forgive the jews? to his cosmic form? the flesh god is asking the spirit god to FORGIVE the jews?
        he is asking the father, son and the spirit to forgive the jews?

        the question is, WERE THEY FORGIVEN?
        did the father say, ” okay jesus, i will forgive the dirty jews” ?

        NO THE TEXT DOESN’T SAY THAT, DOES IT?

        and what happen?

        the jews were DESTROYED IN jerusalem

        the romans buthered them

        so how is that FORGIvESS?

        IS NOT kristianity claiming that the reason why the jews were destroyed by the romans was because they killed jesus?

        1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 says a lot of nasty things about “the Jews”.

        “The Jews”

        · killed the lord Christ. <——————- this played a major role in killing and nailing hundreds and thousands of jews.

        · killed their own prophets.

        · persecuted the church.

        · do not please God.

        · are against all mankind.

        · try to stop the gospel being preached.

        · are always filling up the totality of all their sins.

        · have suffered the wrath of God to the uttermost finality.

        WRATH OF GOD….hum

        this is FORGIVENESS?

        so, if i for 10 years am patient with a thief and then after 10 years i buCther him does that mean i forgave the thief?

        so it seems that luke who is writing to gentiles people is trying to tell the romans that jesus forgave not the jew,s BUT THE ROMANS.

        he was basically "ass licking" the romans

        get the point?

        your evangelic buddies:

        popular Evangelical site GotQuestions.org sums it up nicely:

        Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

        so when he failed to do the joshua style executions in the book of joshua, he will do it in his 2ndreturn

        .and don't be an ass

        violence is GOOD

        WHY

        police would have to USE VIOLECE to apprehend a murderer

        they would have to use violence to take out armed people who FIRE ON A PEOPLE

        violence has to be used to prevent a girl from getting raped 60 times

        violence would have to be used to save the lives of innocent children

        if jesus could go in a temple, use a whip , turn over the tables , drive out the traders, then what would be his reaction if he entered A PORN INDUSTRY? would he join in? or create a whip and whip out the porn stars?

        you getting the point liar for krist?

        about "love the enemy"

        nur bin bulls

        do you love MUHAMMAD pbuh?

        do you love him with all your heart?

        if you have a daughter and i raped her infront of your eyes, and my friends also raped her in most disgusting way INFRONT OF YOUR eyes, would you love us with all your love?

        if you r daughter did not love her rapists with GENUINE /TRUE love then did she sin lol?

        if you are really angry with me 4 raping your daughter in front of your eyes ,then doesn't that render 'love thy enemy' to be COMPLETE AND UTTER BULL CRAP?

        you can try your best but your love would be DEFICIENT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE FUELED WITH HATE AND ANGER.

  38. mrk says:

    i have a question for christians

    if i were able to break the sound barrier and fly to the heavens like superman man did, would you consider me a god?