Unveiling Pastor Carey

The Deleting Pastor. What’s up with that?

by Ibn Anwar

Pastor Carey was virtually UNKNOWN to me before 8 days ago, which was December the 20th. He responded to my article Is God All Knowing? which I have replied to. Unfortunately, I have yet to receive any feedback from him to my reply. So I thought I’d check him out by going to his blog. Whilst browsing through the contents an article with a catchy title, “Do you have a ticket to heaven?” caught my eye. The article was rather brief and I thought I’d share my two cents with the good pastor. Before that let me introduce the pastor in his own words,” I’m an everyday guy who is continually amazed that I’ve been given the honor of being a husband (18 years), father (of 5!), and pastor. Currently I serve at Community Church in Leadville, Colorado. ” The following are several exchanges I had with Pastor Carey :

Ibn Anwar, on December 20th, 2007 at 8:04 pm Said:
Greetings,
Pastor, there is only one way to enter paradise..and that is to worship God and only Him. As Jesus said:
“This is life eternal(salvation), that they may know You(The Father) THE ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”
(John 17:3)

Ibn Anwar
http://unveilingchristianity.wordpress.com

—————————————————————————-

Carey, on December 21st, 2007 at 6:51 am Said:
In no way was I condoning or supporting the site I mentioned. I think it’s a tragic misuse of a very stark reality.

The true way to heaven is through faith in Jesus Christ. As is said by Jesus, “I am the way, the truth, and the life and no man comes to the Father but by Me.”

—————————————————————————–

Ibn Anwar, on December 23rd, 2007 at 2:55 am Said:
Greetings,
Sir, I would agree with you that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no man cometh unto the Father but through him…but you should put that within its context…first of all it was spoken to the people whom Jesus was sent to i.e. the lost sheep of Israel..secondly..Jesus is the way, yes..as how all other Prophets were a way to God in their own respective dispensations e.g. in the time of Moses, he was the only way, but, some of his people chose other paths like that of the Golden Calf and as such they were destroyed. The verse you quoted by no means contradict that which I provided and I shall repeat it again

“This is life eternal(SALVATION), that they may know You(The Father) THE ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” John 17:3

Ibn Anwar
http://unveilingchristianity.wordpress.com

———————————————————————

Carey, on December 23rd, 2007 at 6:58 am Said:
In no way was I trying to say that your previous comment was contradictory to the verse to which I referred. I agree that salvation is known through our knowledge of the Father – but that knowledge comes THROUGH Jesus Christ ONLY.

I am simply saying that Jesus is more than “a” way to God (as you claim other prophets were). He is THE way to God – PERIOD. He Himself says so. The Apostle Peter said the same when he stated, “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” – Acts 4:12

Regarding your claim that Moses was “the” way to God during his dispensation – I would have to differ. In the Old Testament period (Mosaic law period included) – people were justified by faith in God, not through a prophet (Moses). The writer of Hebrews makes this clear when he says – “For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses–as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself.” – Hebrews 3:3 The writer of Hebrews continues to say that all the ancient peoples were commended by their faith in God – alone. (Hebrews 11:39)

Thank you for your comments. I pray a blessed Christmas for you and yours…

————————–“End of discussion”………………………………………….

 In truth, the discussion didn’t end there. In fact, I sent two responses to Pastor Carey’s last piece. My responses were dated 23rd December which was just two days before Christmas. Like my blog, Pastor Carey’s comment section is moderated i.e. all comments must be approved first before they appear for public viewing. Thus, I patiently waited for the comments to be approved and anticipated a reply from the good pastor. One day went by, two days, three days..I started to wonder why it’s taking him so long to approve and respond. I guessed that perhaps being a pastor and everything his schedule must be packed for Christmas, so I excused any ill thoughts. However, today after 5 days of waiting I discovered that the responses have been deleted! For those not familiar with wordpress may ask,”how do you know that?” It’s quite simple really. When you’ve posted a comment on a moderated blog it has to be approved before the public can read it. However, you as the author of the comment whilst logged on your wordpress account can see and read it so long as it awaits moderation and hasn’t been deleted by the owner of the blog. The comment will bear the “awaiting moderation” status above it. You can conclude that the comments have been deleted if you yourself cannot find the comment anymore for the respective articles you commented on.

The following are “print screen” shots of my responses to Carey’s article(as insurance lol) :

The last comment the pastor made which called for my two comments which were deleted. As you can see, this print screen was done today, by which time my comments have already been deleted.

 

 “Print Screen” of my first response done on 12.24.2007

         

                  

 “Print Screen” of my second response done on 12.24.2007

 

Another “print screen” as evidence of deletion done today

The arrow points to the absence of my responses which means they have been deleted.

 It would appear that Pastor Carey wanted to have the last word. Well, it’s his blog, so it’s his prerogative whether to approve or unproved and delete comments made. However, if the comments do not contain undesirable things such as lewdity does it not deserve a chivalrous reply? I mean come on, if it was off topic at the very least then sure, delete away. But it was right on the mark. Does the Bible not say “Prove all things” for those who know their Bible? By deleting my comments, does it not show a sign of weakness and maybe even dishonesty? Perhaps my responses were too heavy for the Pastor….has the Holy Spirit deserted him in this “joyous” season of “blessings”?

 

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11 Responses to “Unveiling Pastor Carey”

  1. Carey says:

    Hello, Pastor Carey here…

    It’s amazing to me how quickly (5 days) one can make a judgement of another – a person who is virtually unknown. Actions are judged, motives are weighed, and a conclusion is made – all in a matter of a few exchanges and 5 days’ time, and with very little grace. Instead, I’m made out to be “weak,” “dishonest,” and “deserted” by the Holy Spirit. It’s your blog, so it’s your prerogative… Sad though…

    You are very correct, the Christmas season has been very busy for me, as is every season. My blog is a “side” thing – in addition to my relationship with Christ, my family, my ministry responsibilities, and a part-time job. Your responses were beginning to require a more involved response on my part, which would take up more and more of my time in order to reply adequately. I chose to make a decision of “priority” for myself. I simply did not and do not have the time to invest in a sufficient reply in a timely manner, so I chose to end my replies.

    Did I want to have the last word? Not at all – I simply have to budget my time to its wisest use. If you would like to carry on the discussion via e-mail, I’d be happy to do so but cannot in a timely manner. Should we do so, you are welcome to post the replies, etc. on yoru blog. However, the amount of time you may have to wait for a response may be much more than 5 days, but I will respond. As I said, my world is very busy and I have priorities greater than this exchange.

  2. Ibn Anwar says:

    Assalamu’alaikum and Greetings,
    Well, thank you for the clairification on what actually happened. However, I still do not think it was very chivalrous of you to just delete those comments I made just because you percieved that they require much time of your already packed schedule. The right thing to do would have to just approve the comments and then reply saying I’ll get back to you as soon as I can and maybe slowly. I wouldn’t mind that. But again..just deleting them like that was rather rude, hence the article above. Had I not written this article, you would have gone on with life as if nothing had happened and that would have been the end of it. Now, that I’ve caught your attention…we can begin the discussion if you please. Now, I don’t want you to beat around the bush. Why e-mail? We can discuss here. Let’s continue from where we left of, shall we?

  3. Carey says:

    You are right. In hindsight it would have been much better to communicate my intentions to you, I apologize for that point of insensitivity.

    I’ll be happy to continue the conversation, here on your forum…but in time… other things are more pressing at the moment. When I do resume the dialogue, I’ll copy your comments over so that your readers can see what you sent to me.

    Blessings,
    Carey

  4. Ibn Anwar says:

    Assalamu’alaikum and Greetings,

    Thank you. I certainly accept your apology. I look forward to further exchanges with you.

    Ibn Anwar

  5. Carey says:

    Hello again, My schedule has finally diminished to the point that I can reply to your last comment on my blog. Let me begin by saying that we will likely come to a place where we have to agree to disagree… such is the case when opinions and interpretations vary…

    I will post below what you wrote to me and reply with my comments within the post (this is going to be along reply)

    YOUR REPLY ON MY BLOG (http://thepfjournal.wordpress.com) BEGAN:

    Greetings,

    Sir, your saying that Jesus is THE way to God and there isn’t any other way is your own interpretation with help from other verses which you’ve provided e.g. Acts 4:12.

    MY RESPONSE
    I have to disagree with you from the beginning. The other verses I provided do support the idea that Jesus is the only way to God, but the text from John 14 determines the real meaning by IT’S OWN context. Look at the passage…

    1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 “And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7″ If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” 8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

    Jesus’ comments come in the context of telling His followers that He was going to prepare a place for them – an eternal home with His Father. Thomas, seeming a bit confused, says that they (the disciples) don’t know the way to the place Jesus is going, so how could they get there? Jesus’ REPLY to Thomas’ question is that HE (not Moses, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Buddah) is the WAY to that place. In the comments that follow, Jesus affirms His own identity as being Divine, being ONE with the Father. This concept reiterates that Jesus did not think of Himself as one among many avenues to God the Father. He saw Himself as One with the Father – unique among all spiritual leaders or teachers.

    YOU WROTE:
    You said you disagree with my understanding that he (Moses) was the way to God. Who brought the teachings of God and the 10 commandments to the Jews in order for them to have proper belief in God? Was it not Moses as chosen by God? Was he not a messenger of God? As a messenger of God, did he not act as a mouth piece, instrument of God? And as such was he not followed by the faithful as God

    commanded? Was it not through him that the Jews were saved from Pharoah and given many teachings from God? Of course..the answer is yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. So my saying that Moses was THE way to God in his own
    dispensation is indeed right on the mark. Likewise, through the teachings of Jesus which he got from his God and Father who is also our God and Father as he said “My God and your God, My Father and your Father” he(Jesus) is the way, the truth and the life…The teachings and salvation does not come from Jesus himself, but, from God. Jesus was merely an instrument used by God to achieve that purpose. As Acts 2:22 states “Listen to this, Jesus of Nazareth was a MAN appointed by God who did many mighty miracles which GOD DID THROUGH him.” He was merely a switch and the power was coming from a generator seperate from the switch but connected to it.

    The following is an explanation on the verse in question:

    The following article belongs to the Muslim-SA@acsu.buffalo.edu Islamic Student Organization.

    Some people read:

    “I am the way, …no one comes to the Father, but through me.”

    When reading this verse, for some reason some people see in it a confirmation of the Trinity. Although I can not see how they can read either an explicit or even an implicit reference to the Trinity in this verse, still, due to it’s popularity it deserves to be studied

    There appear to be a sizable number of Christians who when reading this verse interpret it to state that Jesus is God and that no one shall enter into heaven except if they worship Jesus. However, since it is brought up so often in discussions of the Trinity it appears to be appropriate to discuss it here.

    The popular perception that this verse claims that Jesus requires our worship in order for us to receive salvation is not the intended meaning of this verse. However, in order for us to recognize this fact it is necessary to study it’s context.

    If we were to back up a little and read from the beginning of this chapter, we would find that just before Jesus spoke these words, he said;

    “In my Father’s house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you.”

    John 14:2

    The above statement is quite clear. It is in exact conformance to the teachings of the Qur’an. In the Qur’an we are told how God sent messengers to all tribes and nations. We are told that the basic message which was given to each of these tribes was the same: “Worship God alone and worship none else.” Some of the secondary details of this worship might differ from one tribe or nation to the next according to God’s infinite wisdom and his knowledge of those people. It was made very clear to each prophet that he was not to preach to anyone but his own people. It was further made clear to this messenger’s people that if they were to obey him that they would receive the reward of God. God would not hold them accountable for what any other tribe or nation did or did not do. This would continue until God’s last messenger, Muhammad (pbuh) would be sent to all mankind as the seal of the prophets.

    This is exactly what Jesus is saying here. He said that in God’s mansion there are “many” rooms. Jesus was sent to guide to only one of them. The countless other rooms were reserved for other tribes and nations if they would obey their messengers. However, Jesus was telling his followers that they need not worry themselves about the other rooms. Anyone from among his people who wished to enter into the room which was reserved for them could only do so if they followed Jesus and obeyed his command. So Jesus confirmed that he was going to prepare “a” mansion and not “all” the mansions in “my Father’s house”.

    Further, the verse clearly states that Jesus was the “WAY” to a mansion. He did not say that he is the “DESTINATION” which would be the case if he were God. What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except “I am the ‘way’ to God’s mercy”? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God. This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus tells us that he is “the door” to “the pasture.” In other words, he is the “prophet” who guides his people to “heaven” (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again, this is the message of Islam.

    Finally, remember

    “Not every one that says to me(Jesus); ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven.”

    Matthew.7:21

  6. Carey says:

    I apologize…
    I somehow hit the “submit” button too early… You may delete everything in the previous reply, from the YOU WROTE forward to the end, as I will repeat it here… I continue…

    YOU WROTE: You said you disagree with my understanding that he was the way to God. Who brought the teachings of God and the 10 commandments to the Jews in order for them to have proper belief in God? Was it not Moses as chosen by God? Was he not a messenger of God? As a messenger of God, did he not act as a mouth piece, instrument of God? And as such was he not followed by the faithful as God commanded? Was it not through him that the Jews were saved from Pharoah and given many teachings from God? Of course..the answer is yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. So my saying that Moses was THE way to God in his own
    dispensation is indeed right on the mark.

    MY REPLY
    No, not right on the mark at all. You are confusing the “means” God uses (in this case Moses, the plagues, and the law of God) with the One (God) who brought about the salvation from Pharaoh. Moses was NOT the one who brought salvation from Pharoah – God was. He was the One who brought the plagues that eventually resulted in deliverance. Moses was only the messenger. Under your logic, one could say that the plagues were THE way to God in their own dispensation. It’s ridiculous. In a more modern framework: Your argument is equal to saying that the local mail carrier wrote me a letter simply because he is the one who delivered it to my house, when in reality the letter came from someone else. The mail carrier was the “means” through which the letter came – nothing more.

    YOU WROTE Likewise, through the teachings of Jesus which he got from his God and Father who is also our God and Father as he said “My God and your God, My Father and your Father” he(Jesus) is the way, the truth and the life…The teachings and salvation does not come from Jesus himself, but, from God. Jesus was merely an instrument used by God to achieve that purpose.

    MY RESPONSE
    Jesus was not and is not a “means” of salvation, He IS salvation itself because He IS God – as He stated clearly in John 14:9, and as is said of Him in John chapter 1:1 and 1:14. He is God in the flesh, our Salvation, for all mankind in all generations. To say anything less is to MISS the entire point of Jesus’ life and teachings and to completely ignore or be ignorant of the Old Testament prophetic foreshadowings and predictions of His identity, life, ministry, death, and resurrection. He is God’s Annointed One who would redeem not only Israel, but the entire human race (Daniel 9:25-26).

    YOU WROTE – The following is an explanation on the verse in question:

    The following article belongs to the Muslim-SA@acsu.buffalo.edu Islamic Student Organization.

    Some people read:

    “I am the way, …no one comes to the Father, but through me.”

    When reading this verse, for some reason some people see in it a confirmation of the Trinity. Although I can not see how they can read either an explicit or even an implicit reference to the Trinity in this verse, still, due to it’s popularity it deserves to be studied. There appear to be a sizable number of Christians who when reading this verse interpret it to state that Jesus is God and that no one shall enter into heaven except if they worship Jesus. However, since it is brought up so often in discussions of the Trinity it appears to be appropriate to discuss it here. The popular perception that this verse claims that Jesus requires our worship in order for us to receive salvation is not the intended meaning of this verse. However, in order for us to recognize this fact it is necessary to study it’s context. If we were to back up a little and read from the beginning of this chapter, we would find that just before Jesus spoke these words, he said;

    “In my Father’s house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you.” John 14:2

    The above statement is quite clear. It is in exact conformance to the teachings of the Qur’an. In the Qur’an we are told how God sent messengers to all tribes and nations. We are told that the basic message which was given to each of these tribes was the same: “Worship God alone and worship none else.” Some of the secondary details of this worship might differ from one tribe or nation to the next according to God’s infinite wisdom and his knowledge of those people. It was made very clear to each prophet that he was not to preach to anyone but his own people. It was further made clear to this messenger’s people that if they were to obey him that they would receive the reward of God. God would not hold them accountable for what any other tribe or nation did or did not do. This would continue until God’s last messenger, Muhammad (pbuh) would be sent to all mankind as the seal of the prophets. This is exactly what Jesus is saying here. He said that in God’s mansion there are “many” rooms. Jesus was sent to guide to only one of them. The countless other rooms were reserved for other tribes and nations if they would obey their messengers. However, Jesus was telling his followers that they need not worry themselves about the other rooms. Anyone from among his people who wished to enter into the room which was reserved for them could only do so if they followed Jesus and obeyed his command. So Jesus confirmed that he was going to prepare “a” mansion and not “all” the mansions in “my Father’s house”. Further, the verse clearly states that Jesus was the “WAY” to a mansion. He did not say that he is the “DESTINATION” which would be the case if he were God. What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except “I am the ‘way’ to God’s mercy”? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God. This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus tells us that he is “the door” to “the pasture.” In other words, he is the “prophet” who guides his people to “heaven” (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again, this is the message of Islam.

    MY REPLY
    As you have challenged me not to use another text to explain Jesus’ words, I would challenge you to do the same. Appealing to the Qur’an or any other religious text in an effort to “inform” the words of Jesus is not appropriate interpretation or methodology by any recognized standard. Your attempt here is to make Jesus Himself into an Islamic teacher or to suggest that He is in support of the teachings of Islam, and that cannot be honestly done. Jesus’ message was about Himself, as God, as the ONLY means of salvation for ALL of mankind. To insist that He meant something else is to insist on an absurdity. Read ALL of Jesus’ teachings in THEIR contexts. There is NO WAY He was in sympathy with the teachings of the Qur’an.

    I have enjoyed our interaction and harbor no ill will toward you or others of your faith – I simply disagree on what the truth of this matter is. My belief, informed by a very clear reading of the Biblical text, is that Jesus is the ONLY way to relationship and communion with God, for all people.

    Blessings,
    Pastor Carey

  7. Ibn Anwar says:

    Assalamu’alaikum and Greetings,

    I do not think there is any need for me to respond to any of the points you brought up..simply because you have not refuted anything. Every single point in your response has already been sufficiently covered by my deleted comments which you have reproduced(I thank you for that). However, I would like to briefly comment on the following :

    YOU WROTE: You said you disagree with my understanding that he was the way to God. Who brought the teachings of God and the 10 commandments to the Jews in order for them to have proper belief in God? Was it not Moses as chosen by God? Was he not a messenger of God? As a messenger of God, did he not act as a mouth piece, instrument of God? And as such was he not followed by the faithful as God commanded? Was it not through him that the Jews were saved from Pharoah and given many teachings from God? Of course..the answer is yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. So my saying that Moses was THE way to God in his own
    dispensation is indeed right on the mark.

    MY REPLY
    No, not right on the mark at all. You are confusing the “means” God uses (in this case Moses, the plagues, and the law of God) with the One (God) who brought about the salvation from Pharaoh. Moses was NOT the one who brought salvation from Pharoah – God was. He was the One who brought the plagues that eventually resulted in deliverance. Moses was only the messenger. Under your logic, one could say that the plagues were THE way to God in their own dispensation. It’s ridiculous. In a more modern framework: Your argument is equal to saying that the local mail carrier wrote me a letter simply because he is the one who delivered it to my house, when in reality the letter came from someone else. The mail carrier was the “means” through which the letter came – nothing more.

    Sir…you are truly confused..nowhere did I mention that Moses was the absolute saviour of the Egyptians..obviously every good comes from God..and there are times when He would choose certain individuals to carry out that good will of His..those who are chosen may be called saviours..but of course..truly God is THE saviour. In any case, you MISSED the point…my response as I remember correctly was to your saying that MOSES WAS NOT THE WAY TO GOD for the people of his time, particularly those held in bondage by Pharoah….it was not whether he’s their saviour. Sir..I thank you for providing the analogy about the mail man and the letter…that is exactly what I was saying, “Your argument is equal to saying that the local mail carrier wrote me a letter simply because he is the one who delivered it to my house, when in reality the letter came from someone else. The mail carrier was the “means” through which the letter came – nothing more.” Another word for “means” is WAY…yes…like the mail carrier bringing the letter to the receiver i.e. a means/channel through which the letter is sent…God gave salvation and good teaching VIA Moses(the channel/means)..likewise Jesus was the MEANS/CHANNEL through which the salvation and message of God is given.

    Thank you for agreeing that things should be understood within context..yet..your response to the LENGTHY and detailed contextual explanation of the verse, “I am the way…” by Mishaal DID NOT REBUT or CORRECT anything…you merely gave a response BUT not a counter explanation…the article has clearly clarified the meaning of the verse with context..you on the other hand have only given lip service and done nothing…

    The following is an explanation on the verse in question:

    The following article belongs to the Muslim-SA@acsu.buffalo.edu Islamic Student Organization.

    Some people read:

    “I am the way, …no one comes to the Father, but through me.”

    When reading this verse, for some reason some people see in it a confirmation of the Trinity. Although I can not see how they can read either an explicit or even an implicit reference to the Trinity in this verse, still, due to it’s popularity it deserves to be studied. There appear to be a sizable number of Christians who when reading this verse interpret it to state that Jesus is God and that no one shall enter into heaven except if they worship Jesus. However, since it is brought up so often in discussions of the Trinity it appears to be appropriate to discuss it here. The popular perception that this verse claims that Jesus requires our worship in order for us to receive salvation is not the intended meaning of this verse. However, in order for us to recognize this fact it is necessary to study it’s context. If we were to back up a little and read from the beginning of this chapter, we would find that just before Jesus spoke these words, he said;

    “In my Father’s house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you.” John 14:2

    The above statement is quite clear. It is in exact conformance to the teachings of the Qur’an. In the Qur’an we are told how God sent messengers to all tribes and nations. We are told that the basic message which was given to each of these tribes was the same: “Worship God alone and worship none else.” Some of the secondary details of this worship might differ from one tribe or nation to the next according to God’s infinite wisdom and his knowledge of those people. It was made very clear to each prophet that he was not to preach to anyone but his own people. It was further made clear to this messenger’s people that if they were to obey him that they would receive the reward of God. God would not hold them accountable for what any other tribe or nation did or did not do. This would continue until God’s last messenger, Muhammad (pbuh) would be sent to all mankind as the seal of the prophets. This is exactly what Jesus is saying here. He said that in God’s mansion there are “many” rooms. Jesus was sent to guide to only one of them. The countless other rooms were reserved for other tribes and nations if they would obey their messengers. However, Jesus was telling his followers that they need not worry themselves about the other rooms. Anyone from among his people who wished to enter into the room which was reserved for them could only do so if they followed Jesus and obeyed his command. So Jesus confirmed that he was going to prepare “a” mansion and not “all” the mansions in “my Father’s house”. Further, the verse clearly states that Jesus was the “WAY” to a mansion. He did not say that he is the “DESTINATION” which would be the case if he were God. What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except “I am the ‘way’ to God’s mercy”? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God. This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus tells us that he is “the door” to “the pasture.” In other words, he is the “prophet” who guides his people to “heaven” (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again, this is the message of Islam.

    The true Jesus was a Muslim. Alhamdulillah.

    Ibn Anwar

  8. Carey says:

    We will agree to disagree on this, as is obvious.

    You appear not to be willing to take a very CLEAR and NORMAL reading of the Biblical text for what it really says. Jesus CLEARLY made Himself equal to and one with God the Father. The verses I cited make that perfectly clear. He does not HAVE to say the exact words, “I am the destination” when He DOES go on to say, “I and the Father are one.” That statement mankes clear what He has already said, the He is the WAY and He is one with the Father. There is no more clear statement in all of scripture. Were I or you to say, “I and my father are one.” we would be considered psychologically imbalanced and fit for the insane asylum along with those who think they are Napolean Bonepart. Jesus’ comment was CLEARLY claiming equality and ACTUAL oneness with the Father God. That is either true, or it is not. If we say it is not, then we have no option but to put Him in the category of those who belong in the asylum, at which point He and His message become unusable by either of us. So, you truly have no ground to stand on in saying that Jesus was a prophet of God (but not God) when He says statements like that. He has not given you that option by the way He has characterized Himself.

    His claim to be one with the Father (God) is consistent with the teaching of John chapter 1, that “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God. (emphasis mine). Then later the “Word” is defined by the statement of verse 14, “The Word became flesh and lived among us, we have seen His glory, that of the One and only from the Father, full of grace and truth.” Clearly it is speaking of Jesus and no other, in all of human history. It is hard to accept even for Christians, but the one-ness of Jesus and the Father are at the core of right theology.

    I appreciate your zeal but will continue, based on the clarity of the scriptures, to disagree with you.

    I pray God’s best for you,

    Carey

  9. Ibn Anwar says:

    Assalamu’alaikum and Greetings,
    It would appear that it is you who lack CLEAR reading and understanding of Biblical texts. Normal?..well who defines what’s normal in Biblical critique? By NORMAL you mean YOUR understanding…sorry..that’s not how intellectual and critical discussions work. You said that Jesus did not have to say he’s the destination when he went on to say “I and the Father are one”…okay..now you’ve brought another verse to the table. The first verse has already been fully elucidated to which you have FAILED and FAILED again to respond or refute. So now you’ve resorted to this verse instead. Okay..let’s have a look at this verse and see if you’ve understood it correctly. The verse is “I and the Father are one” which is John 10:30..one of the most quoted verses in Trinitarian circles. You say this is evidence of Jesus’ divinity, him claiming Godhood. If one were to read the verse just like that DEVOID of its context like how you’ve understood John 14, certainly one would come to the same conclusion you have. Just by the way…”I and the Father are one”(John 10) comes BEFORE “I am the way..”(John 14)..which means your saying and I quote,”He does not HAVE to say the exact words, “I am the destination” when He DOES go on to say, “I and the Father are one.” shows an unscholarly and weak grasp of the Bible since you implied that he said I am the way first then said I and the Father are one by your saying “DOES GO ON TO SAY”. Now, let’s get back to the verse in question. John 10:30…let’s look at it IN CONTEXT.

    The context begins from verse 23 to 30

    “And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.”

    Read carefully….what exactly did Jesus mean when he said I and the Father are one..in what sense did he utter that sentence? In divinity? In a holy “Trinity”? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus’ hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God’s hand. The following are the verses that need to be emphasised in order to understand verse 30 :

    “”…Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are One.””

    That is to say, when one has accepted faith, Jesus alongside God will see to it that they will remain in faith..in this WE ARE ONE!..not that he’s one with the Father is Godhood. The context it quite clear for those who aren’t blinded by emotion. In case you still refuse to accept this explanation which is the truth, then consider the following :

    okay..so you have “I and the Father are one”..the Greek word there for one is HEN. All right..you say that this means Jesus is one with God and that makes him God. Consider the following CAREFULLY :

    “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE IN us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE.” (John 17:20-22)

    The same word HEN is used three times over to describe the unity shared by the Father, Jesus and the 12 disciples…so are they all now one huge sausage of a God? how many Gods do you have?? Come now..be reasonable and realise that you have utterly misunderstood everything.

    In regards to John 1:1..refer to a complete scholarly analyses of the verse here http://www.answering-christian.....word_1.htm .

    I appreciate your continued participation, but now we see that it is you who require further in depth reading of your own scripture…walk the talk ;).

    Ibn Anwar

  10. Carey says:

    While I appreciate your zeal and your attempts at understanding the scriptures, you are clearly bent on making Jesus into something/someone He clearly is NOT. He was a JEW, not a Muslim. His faith was an outgrowth of the Jewish faith, not the Muslim faith. You seem to willingly and purposely disregard this in your interpretive methods.

    The passage in question in our last round of interaction DOES NOT (despite your attempts to make it so) plainly say that Jesus was speaking of His purpose and the Father’s purpose being one. Though that fact is true, it is NOT what He was saying in this case. For YOUR interpretation to be valid it would have to mean what you are insistent, but it clearly does not when you read the text honestly and openly. Jesus’clear meaning was, in effect, “No man can snatch them from my Father’s hand because My Father’s hand and My hand are one and the same.” A plain reading of the text and it’s context makes that ultimately clear to any honest reader of the scriptures. Your insistence to make Jesus into something other than what He truly is, causes you to be intellectually dishonest with the text. You are reading meanings INTO the text rather than drawing meaning OUT OF the text.

    Therefore I feel that I cannot continue an interaction with you over these subjects. Your insistence on applying the scriptures in ways that they cannot legitimately be applied makes a true dialogue with a respectable tone of intellectual honesty impossible.

    While you may take this as a failure on my part, and perhaps even disparage and demean me to your readers, I trust that God’s Word will have it’s intended affect, regardless of your twistings of it. I trust also that the Lord Jesus Christ will supernaturally show Himself to be God in the flesh, risen and returning to earth, to both you and your readers. Despite your attempts to misconstrue God’s word, it will be found true and clear in the end.

  11. Ibn Anwar says:

    Assalamu’alaikum and Greetings,

    Well..thank you sir….you said,”you are clearly bent on making Jesus into something/someone He clearly is NOT.” I could say the very same thing about you. In the end it is a matter of perspective, which camp you hail from. Then you said,”He was a JEW, not a Muslim. His faith was an outgrowth of the Jewish faith, not the Muslim faith.” I’m sorry, but last I checked we were discussing about whether Jesus is God or otherwise, NOT whether he was Christian, Jew or Muslim. Try to keep on the topic if you please. Nonetheless, since you’ve brought it up, incidentally, this is the very subject the first article posted on this blog deals with. The article is entitled, “Is Jesus Christian?”. You may access the article here http://unveilingchristianity.w.....christian/ .

    You then said,”You seem to willingly and purposely disregard this in your interpretive methods.” You seem bent on how people should understand the text, that is, from your point of view. I’m sorry, but even in the Christian community there are many different views and concepts. If you cannot handle different interpretations that may differ to yours, and fear challenge then my advise to you is never participate in religious debates.

    Coming to your rebuttal. You said,”The passage in question in our last round of interaction DOES NOT (despite your attempts to make it so) plainly say that Jesus was speaking of His purpose and the Father’s purpose being one.” Well, I think it would appear that what I explained is precisely the message conveyed in John 10:23 to 30, in light of the context as well as a comparison with John 17(which you conveniently ignored).

    You said,”Jesus’clear meaning was, in effect, “No man can snatch them from my Father’s hand because My Father’s hand and My hand are one and the same.” A plain reading of the text and it’s context makes that ultimately clear to any honest reader of the scriptures.” That is not what the text says, do not try to fool with me. It would appear that it is you who’s being DISHONEST with the text. The verses are thus,”“”…Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are One.”” Nowehere does it say my hand and my Father’s hand are one and the same. This is YOUR own words, YOUR own interpretation and might I add..DEVOID of context. Being a dishonest reader that you are, you have failed to notice, deliberately or otherwise that Jesus IN CONTEXT stated,”MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN ALL” which includes himself because in another instance he said,”MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I”…reasonably and logically, if his hand and the Father’s are one and the same as you have put IN YOUR OWN WORDS, they would be EQUAL and one cannot be subservient to the other. The oneness as is mentioned in John 10:30 has nothing to do with oneness of person but rather oneness of PURPOSE as is THE EXACT SAME message of John 17 i.e. that the disciples are made one with jesus and the father IN PURPOSE. I suggest you study the scriptures further. From the start you’re the one who’s been on the offense and I on the defense, explaining off verses you bring forth in support of your standpoint. I will now offer you just one evidence from my part. I employed the same argument with Jan in the Trinity Challenge thread and she has failed to address it like all other Trinitarians I’ve encountered. To save time I will simply copy and paste what I said to Jan.

    Now I shall offer one evidence from the Bible which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus was NOT God. First of all let us agree based on Acts 2:22,”Listen to this, Jesus of Nazareth was a MAN..”. This is Peter speaking and interestingly, notice that he did not say Jesus was God or man God or man and God or anything to the effect. He merely affirmed that Jesus was a MAN!. Now that we have established that Jesus was a man, let us have a look at what The Old Testament has to say about man :

    “And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he IS NOT A MAN, that he should have regret.” (1 Samuel 15:29)

    “I will not execute my burning anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God AND NOT A MAN, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath.” (Hosea 11:9)

    “God IS NOT A MAN, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?” (Numbers 23:19)

    Here we have explicit statements from the OT explicitly indicating that GOD IS NOT A MAN. Jesus as we have agreed was a MAN. Hence, Jesus was NOT GOD! It’s quite simple really.

    You said,”Therefore I feel that I cannot continue an interaction with you over these subjects. Your insistence on applying the scriptures in ways that they cannot legitimately be applied makes a true dialogue with a respectable tone of intellectual honesty impossible.

    While you may take this as a failure on my part, and perhaps even disparage and demean me to your readers, I trust that God’s Word will have it’s intended affect, regardless of your twistings of it. I trust also that the Lord Jesus Christ will supernaturally show Himself to be God in the flesh, risen and returning to earth, to both you and your readers. Despite your attempts to misconstrue God’s word, it will be found true and clear in the end.

    Right…so in short you’re fleeing. Well, that’s your prerogative. I cannot force you to remain in the discussion. Whether it’s a sign of failure on your part or not…that’s up to the readers to judge. Why did you allege that I would disparage you? Why would I wanna disparage you? what would I gain from that? Here’s what I will do:

    “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear”
    (1st Peter 3:15)

    You want me to swallow what you believe…blind faith..yet, I see your master saying :

    “Prove all things….”(1st Thessalonians 5:21)

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