Salvation ONLY comes through sacrifice!

There is No Salvation Without Sacrifice

by Ibn Anwar

Christians declare that there is no forgiveness or salvation except through the shedding of blood i.e. sacrifice. They will go on to say that the Islamic idea of God just forgiving a sinner’s sin is unjust and they will then give their rationalisations for saying this. If asked,”Where does it say that God cannot forgive except through some sort of sacrifice?” the Christians will quote,”…Without shedding of blood there is no atonement” (Hebrews 9:22)

Before I continue , I’d like to put forth several questions for you the readers to ponder on.

1. If I can show even one instance where God in the Bible forgave a person’s sin without sacrificial rites how will that stand in light of the Christian notion that it is unjust for God to simply forgive?

2. If it is shown that God can forgive sin without blood sacrifice, what then is the significance of Jesus’ alleged sacrifice?

3. If it is proven that God had no problem at all in forgiving sins without blood sacrifices then why did he have to crucify His only “begotten” son, Jesus and declare to the whole world that from then onwards the only way to forgiveness is through Jesus’ death? Why would He radically change His nature when it’s stated in Malachi 3:6,”For I am the Lord, I DO NOT CHANGE”?

 Let us now proceed to the textual evidences.

The book of Jonah, Chapter 3 (In the NKJV, the heading “Nineveh Repents” is given)

NLT

 Then the Lord spoke to Jonah a second time: “Get up and go to the great city of Nineveh, and deliver the message I have given you.”
 This time Jonah obeyed the Lord’s command and went to Nineveh, a city so large that it took three days to see it all. On the day Jonah entered the city, he shouted to the crowds: “Forty days from now Nineveh will be destroyed!” The people of Nineveh believed God’s message, and from the greatest to the least, they declared a fast and put on burlap to show their sorrow.

 When the king of Nineveh heard what Jonah was saying, he stepped down from his throne and took off his royal robes. He dressed himself in burlap and sat on a heap of ashes. Then the king and his nobles sent this decree throughout the city:

   “No one, not even the animals from your herds and flocks, may eat or drink anything at all. People and animals alike must wear garments of mourning, and everyone must pray earnestly to God. They must turn from their evil ways and stop all their violence.  Who can tell? Perhaps even yet God will change his mind and hold back his fierce anger from destroying us.”

 When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.”

In short, God forgave the people of Nineveh without a single demand for blood sacrifice.

 

Is intercession between us and God for forgiveness required?

“As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?” (Ezekiel 33:11)

The word “turn” here in Hebrew is shuvu which is similar with the word teshuvah which carries the same meaning as tawbah in Arabic i.e. return/repent.

“And suppose I tell some wicked people that they will surely die, but then they turn from their sins and do what is just and right. For instance, they might give back a debtor’s security, return what they have stolen, and obey my life-giving laws, no longer doing what is evil. If they do this, then they will surely live and not die. None of their past sins will be brought up again, for they have done what is just and right, and they will surely live.”    (Ezekiel 33:14-16)

 

Neither sacrifice nor intercession for forgiveness is demanded

The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.” (Ezekiel 18: 20-22)

Firstly, in the verses quoted above one can clearly see that the idea of inherited sin is totally debunked. Secondly, repentance is taught as a means for salvation and that if repentance is sought and one adheres to that which is lawful, ALL one’s past sins will be forgotten. This amazing show of mercy from God is again FREE of any blood sacrifice.

The same message is repeated again in the same chapter :

And if wicked people turn from their wickedness, obey the law, and do what is just and right, they will save their lives. They will live because they thought it over and decided to turn from their sins. Such people will not die.” (Ezekiel 18: 27-28)

“Therefore, I will judge each of you, O people of Israel, according to your actions, says the Sovereign Lord. Repent, and turn from your sins. Don’t let them destroy you!”(Ezekiel 18:30)

 

God is MERCIFUL and is not required to kill anyone for atonement of your sins!

“O my God, lean down and listen to me. Open your eyes and see our despair. See how your city—the city that bears your name—lies in ruins. We make this plea, not because we deserve help, but because of your mercy.” (Daniel 9:18)

 

What is true sacrifice in God’s eyes?

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart”          (Psalm 51:17)

 

Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams” (I Samuel 15:22)

Christians as taught by Paul ALWAYS say that obedience and works are worthless. Accept Jesus’ sacrifice and you will be saved! JUST BELIEVE! Faith comes first, then works will ensue. Yet, in 1 Samuel 15:22 we see a different idea. The Christian point of view is apparently in reverse to that of God’s as portrayed in 1 Samuel 15:22 ! If God said once that obedience is better than sacrifice, how can He again radically change that and reverse the idea? Hmm..I think something fishy is afoot.

 

AGAIN neither sacrifice nor intercession is required!

“Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. ” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

“Finally, I confessed all my sins to you
and stopped trying to hide my guilt.
I said to myself, “I will confess my rebellion to the Lord.”
And you forgave me! All my guilt is gone.” (Psalm 32:5)

“Yet he was merciful and forgave their sins
and did not destroy them all
.
   Many times he held back his anger
      and did not unleash his fury!
  For he remembered that they were merely mortal,
gone like a breath of wind that never returns
.
” (Psalm 78:38-39)

 “Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy. ” (Micah 7:18)

“Perhaps the people of Judah will repent when they hear again all the terrible things I have planned for them. Then I will be able to forgive their sins and wrongdoings.”   (Jeremiah 36:3)

Let the wicked change their ways
and banish the very thought of doing wrong.
Let them turn to the Lord that he may have mercy on them.
Yes, turn to our God, for he will forgive generously
.” (Isaiah 55:7)

 

God forgives not because of lamb, sheep or goat but…

“I—yes, I alone—will blot out your sins for my own sake
      and will never think of them again
.” (Isaiah 43:25)

He forgives not because of all your sheep or goats, but, it is because He is Compassionate and Merciful!

Unfailing love and faithfulness make atonement for sin.
By fearing the Lord, people avoid evil
.” (Proverbs 16:6)

Again, no sheep, goats, elephants, chickens or humans, but, through love of God and faithfulness of men towards his Creator is sin atoned. In addition, the verse informs us that God says that people avoid evil due to their FEAR of God which is contrary to standard Evangelical thought which says evil is avoided simply because of faith in Jesus and the crucifixion.

 

The following passage is rather telling

 

What makes you think I want all your sacrifices?”
     
says the Lord.
   “I am sick of your burnt offerings of rams
      and the fat of fattened cattle.
   I get no pleasure from the blood
      of bulls and lambs and goats.
 When you come to worship me,
     
who asked you to parade through my courts with all your ceremony?
  Stop bringing me your meaningless gifts;
      the incense of your offerings disgusts me!
   As for your celebrations of the new moon and the Sabbath
      and your special days for fasting—
   they are all sinful and false.
      I want no more of your pious meetings.
 I hate your new moon celebrations and your annual festivals.
      They are a burden to me. I cannot stand them!
  When you lift up your hands in prayer, I will not look.
      Though you offer many prayers, I will not listen,
      for your hands are covered with the blood of innocent victims.
  Wash yourselves and be clean!
      Get your sins out of my sight.
      Give up your evil ways.
  Learn to do good.
      Seek justice.
   Help the oppressed.
      Defend the cause of orphans.
      Fight for the rights of widows.

  “Come now, let’s settle this,”
      says the Lord.
   “Though your sins are like scarlet,
      I will make them as white as snow.
   Though they are red like crimson,
      I will make them as white as wool.
  If you will only obey me,
      you will have plenty to eat.
 
But if you turn away and refuse to listen,
     
you will be devoured by the sword of your enemies.
      I, the Lord, have spoken!”
(Isaiah 1:11-18)

From the verses presented right from the beginning until now we see time and again God saying that the way to forgiveness and remission of sins is NOT just by believing in some sacrifice or do some sacrifice , BUT, OBEY OBEY OBEY and BE FAITHFUL TO HIM! In the above given passage of Isaiah we see that God did not just refuse to accept sacrifice but He even hated it and instead demanded REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE. Thus after disclaiming and discrediting sacrifices, God gave them the following solutions(with no mention of sacrifice) :

1. Wash yourself and be clean

2. Give up sins

3. Learn to do good

4. Seek justice

5. Help the oppressed

6. Defend the orphans

7. Fight for widows

 

A Brief overview of the Islamic idea of sin and atonement

Islam like Judaism teaches that sin is not inherited. Every person is accountable for his own deeds and no one will be responsible for the error of another. The Qur’an says :

” Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another’s burden…” (Surah Al-Isra’, verse 15)

“And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden, and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted even though he be near of kin…” (Surah Fatir, verse 18)

“Whosoever does righteous good deed it is for (the benefit of) his ownself, and whosoever does evil, it is against his ownself, and your Lord is not at all unjust to (His) servants.” (Surah Fussilat, verse 46)

Islam does not consider sacrifice a method of atonement for sins even though sacrificing animals is a feature in Islam. For example, during Eid Al-Adha animals like camels or cows are slaughtered. However, this is not done in order to remit sins but rather to remember and commemorate the incident between Abraham a.s. and his son Ismail a.s.  i.e. that Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son, which he attempted, but, God through His divine Mercy replaced that sacrifice with a ram. The Qur’an says about sacrifice :

“It is not their meat nor blood that reaches Allah: it is your piety that reaches Him…”(Surah Al-Hajj, verse 37)

 This message is somewhat similar to a Biblical verse which says:

“For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgement of God rather than burnt offerings” (Hosea 6:6)

The Qur’an like the verses in the Bible presented in this article teaches that in order to gain atonement for sins one has to sincerely ask for forgiveness to God Almighty and resolve not to repeat the same error again. The Qur’an says :

“Say: “O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (will), before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped” (Surah Al-Zumar, verse 53)

“Verily! Allah Accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards, to them Allah will turn in Mercy, for Allah is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom. And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them and he says “now have I repented indeed”, nor of those who die rejecting faith: for them have we prepared a chastisement most grievous.” (Surah Al-Nisa’, verse 17)

 

Conclusion

From the overwhelming Biblical scriptures presented in this paper it is clear that blood atonement and sacrifice is not as significant or important as many Christians try to make it out to be. The fact that God had no problem and was not shy to accept the repentance of his servants free of sacrifice shows that Jesus’ alleged sacrifice for the remission of sins of mankind was not really necessary on God’s part. In fact, the idea seems quite contradictory to God’s supreme Mercy and Compassion.

I would like to end the discussion with the following Biblical verse :

To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.” (Proverbs 21:3)

Wallahu’alam bisawab. Allah knows best.

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59 Responses to “Salvation ONLY comes through sacrifice!”

  1. Alia says:

    Thank you so much!!! May Allah grant your paradise for your hard work! This is exactly what I needed!

    • The Bull says:

      Alia,

      The problem with your statement is that you are suggesting Salvation can be earned through one’s own efforts. God gives paradise because of his grace.
      A question for you to ponder: How many works do you have to do to enter paradise?

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        Please read Matthew 5 and Ecclesiastes 7

      • abu ismail jaafar says:

        “None your works shall enter any of you into paradise.” Someone said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allah?” and he said, “Not even me, unless Allah conceals me beneath a mercy from Him.[1] But do what is right” (Muslim, 4.2169: 2816. S).

        So not even by the truth of one’s religious convictions does anyone enter paradise, but rather only through Allah’s favor in accepting one’s faith of them, in which sense all who enter paradise are under the “divine amnesty” of Allah’s mercy.

        please check the rest of the article, sir: http://shadhilitariqa.com/site.....;Itemid=20

      • IHSAN says:

        the Quran in multiple places states that, “those who fear their Lord, for them is forgiveness and a great reward”. A subtlety is often lossed and that is forgiveness precedes bounty in these verses and it amply illustrates that perfection is not a requirement for Paradise. It is the right attitude couples with sincere effort that earns a place in Paradise.

  2. Mansoor_ali says:

    Sacrifice or Ransom

    Here is beautiful comment by brother Shabir Ally in a response to Dr.James White on the subject of ‘Sacrifice or Ransom’

    Taken from http://shabirally.com/line_of_oct23_2.php

    Ransom vs. Sacrifice

    During the debate I pointed out that Stephen Finlan in his book, Problems with Atonement, has shown that there is a clear distinction between a sacrifice for sin, and a ransom. The sin sacrifice is presented to God based on which God is appeased and he excuses the sinner. Ransom is a different concept. We all know what ransom means. If someone is kidnapped, for example, we may pay a ransom to the kidnappers to secure the release of the victim.

    To say that Jesus died as a ransom for us is riddled with difficulties. This would have been appropriate if the devil held us captive and if God made a deal to get us released by offering up his Son in our place. Although many early Church Fathers did in fact say this, James rightly rejects the idea that God made a deal with the devil.

    This shows why we cannot use Mark 10:45 to prove that Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins. That passage has him saying that he came to die as a ransom for many. Since ransom and sacrifice are two different concepts, we cannot take a statement about ransom and make it speak about sacrifice. But James wants to retain the use of the word ‘ransom’, obviously because it is biblical. He retorted in the debate that I need to understand this in the light of Isaiah 53. I then challenged him to find in Isaiah 53 any mention of ransom. He made an attempt, but I could not hear in what he said anything about ransom with reference to Isaiah 53. Even if we understand that passage as speaking of Jesus, it says nothing of Jesus being a ransom for anyone. James must have felt this himself, for he added a reference to a Deutero-Pauline epistle which speaks of us being redeemed. He explained this as meaning that we have been purchased. But this brought us right back to the original question even if now in a slightly varied form: Purchased from whom?

    Thanks

  3. mrkiller says:

    The bs wrote:
    Both Jesus and Paul suggest that pork is now OK to eat so therefore it is no sin to eat pork. The moral laws are not easier, we just have more grace to follow them. The ceremonial laws (e.g. pork eating) are a different class of laws and are now done away with because of Christ. Sabbath keeping also appears to have been done away with.

    mrkiller:

    we are told in the torah to OBEY GOD. GOD said HIS DIETRY LAWS ARE ETERNAL .how does both jesus and paul WHO NEVER DID THE LAWS 100 PERCENT (actually they BROKE them ) and how does jesus murder in anway put an END to dietry laws?

    he said in another post that EASIER laws = sin. well you HYPOCRITE if EATING ALLS FOOD = EASIER AND IF easier laws = sins, then you’re a sinner. you’re god’s death helps you sin because it has made things easier for you.

    Acts 11:1-3
    1 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
    2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him,
    3 saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

    DO YOU ALL SEE SOMETHING

    peter who had a 100 percent holy ghost god living in him was QUESTIONED BY the circumcised party. and if apostles and brethren were circumcised then THEY ARE THE ONES who took issue with holy ghost god guided peter . so pete fellowshiping with the non-jews who were PORK eaters was disliked by the apostles and the brethren.

    in peter’s response why didn’t he say , “you FOOLS , jesus ATE with the PIG EATING GENTILES”

    peter uses his VISION to tell the people that it is okay to eat with pig eating gentiles.

    lets look at jesus:

    jesus even in his resurrected state, compelled his disciples to carry on ALL of his previous teachings:

    Matthew 28:18-20
    18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

    19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

    20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

    OBSERVE ALL THE i COMMANDED YOU

    Matthew 5:17-20
    17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

    18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

    19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    see bull, you are a PIG eater , who is going against your pre and post ressurected god lol

    you are SINNING for RELAXING your YHWH’S dietry LAWS.

  4. abu ismail jaafar says:

    This is in continuation of the comments found in http://unveilingchristianity.w.....mment-2275 :

    Falling short of Gods glory in the context of sinning (Romans 3:23) means that one is spiritually bankrupt. You seem to be confusing falling short of Gods attributes with falling short of his righteousness. Of course no one can attain Gods glory in the sense of his power and majesty. You can’t have two omnipotent forces anyway because that is oxymoronic. This is not what Paul means (obviously) and we know Satan fell into this trap of attempting to be ‘like the most high’ (Isaiah 14:14). What Paul is saying echoes the prophets in that we are all unrighteous and unclean (Isaiah, Psalms).
    When we become without spot or blemish or blameless in his sight THEN we don’t fall short of his righteousness (his righteous standard).

    Well, you do believe that righteousness is an attribute of God, is that not right? There is a categorical difference between God’s righteousness and man’s, as with all of God’s attributes. Which means, as you have pointed out, we never really become ‘deserving’ of His righteousness,and this even with your supposed atonement. That is, the christian, even though he is supposedly redeemed by Christ, is still being ‘accommodated’ by the largess of God.

    You said: “‘Sleep’ is rest for most of creation. No, I don’t assume too much. you believe He ‘rested’ on the seventh day. You have not explained how God ‘rested’, and why He supposedly needs to rest at all, if you admit that He does not get tired.”
    A: Strong translates the word ‘resteth’ from the Hebrew ‘shabath’: desist from exertion. Nowhere is sleep or tiredness mentioned in this definition. I don’t know exactly what God was doing. Maybe he just wanted to stand back and appreciate his creation for a little while. Why don’t you ask him?

    I’m afraid you’re the one who needs to ask Him, since you believe that He rests.

    You said: “Why would it be a sin if He is the one who permitted it? Do you believe it’s a sin to eat pork?
    Also, if the atonement really works, can you now fulfill all the requirements of the law? Basically, what your supposed atonement did is to have Prophet Jesus killed and then God now issued easier rules for Christians to follow.”
    Both Jesus and Paul suggest that pork is now OK to eat so therefore it is no sin to eat pork. The moral laws are not easier, we just have more grace to follow them. The ceremonial laws (e.g. pork eating) are a different class of laws and are now done away with because of Christ. Sabbath keeping also appears to have been done away with.

    But was it a sin to eat pork before?
    Why is it not a sin now? Are you admitting that God can abrogate His laws? Can something which He abrogates be binding on Him, glorified and exalted is He?

    You quote the prodigal son. The mechanism for forgiveness is still through the atonement concept even though not specifically mentioned. Logically, if you use the prodigal son from the bible as support for your view point you should also accept the other concepts in that book.

    No, I did not use the Bible to support my viewpoint. I used it to draw an interesting parallel, considering that YOU accept the Bible’s authority. I just pointed out a similarity between that particular parable, taken alone, and the Islamic concept of forgiveness. There seem to be other verses in your Bible/s supporting forgiveness without blood atonement as mentioned in this article by bro. Ibn Anwar, yet even if these verses can somehow be interpreted or misinterpreted to fit the doctrine of blood atonement, it wouldn’t change my beliefs since we Muslims have a different basis for our beliefs. The conversation would shift to the validity of say, following the Qur’an or the Bible as God’s word, etc.

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      You said: “‘Sleep’ is rest for most of creation. No, I don’t assume too much. you believe He ‘rested’ on the seventh day. You have not explained how God ‘rested’, and why He supposedly needs to rest at all, if you admit that He does not get tired.”
      A: Strong translates the word ‘resteth’ from the Hebrew ‘shabath’: desist from exertion. Nowhere is sleep or tiredness mentioned in this definition. I don’t know exactly what God was doing. Maybe he just wanted to stand back and appreciate his creation for a little while. Why don’t you ask him?

      I’m afraid you’re the one who needs to ask Him, since you believe that He rests.

      My reply:
      The Bull has two verses in mind in the above response that he gave namely, Genesis 2:2-3. The verses say that after finishing His work, God rested. The key word here is rested which comes from the Hebrew וַיִּשְׁבֹּת(vayisbot) which itself stems from shabbat which means to rest or to stop. The Bull provided a definition from Strong which defines the word as “to repose, i.e. desist from exertion”. What is exertion? Exertion requires effort. Does God have to put in effort to create the universe, nay an atom? Shouldn’t it be an effortless work for God? God actually had to EXERT Himself to create? This is a pertinent question that the Bull should answer in light of the definition from Strong that he appeals to. In addition, he conveniently ignores the fact that elsewhere the Torah says that God rested and WAS REFRESHED. This is mentioned in Exodus 31:17, “It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.” How does God get REFRESHED? This resting isn’t just desisting or ceasing from continuation, but rather it is the resting in terms of relaxation after tiresome work. The same two words are used in Exodus 23:12 for human beings and animals(describing their weekly exertion and how they ought to rest/relax and get refreshed thereafter), “Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.” That is why The Chumash cites Rabbi Rashi who gives the following interpretation to Exodus 31:17, “וַיִּנָּפַֽשׁ – And was refreshed. The verse describes God in human terms, as one who needs rest after six days of work(Rashi).” (Scherman, N. & Zlotowitz, M. (Ed.)(2000). The Chumash: The Torah, Haftaros and Five Megillos with a Commentary Anthologized from the Rabbinic Writings. New York: Mesorah Publications ltd. pp. 492). The Bull is wrong yet again. I wish I could reply to the other things he raised, but I have other engagements to attend to. I might join in the discussion later, insha’Allah. Wassalam.

      • abu ismail jaafar says:

        Excellent point, brother. “What is exertion? Exertion requires effort. Does God have to put in effort to create the universe, nay an atom? Shouldn’t it be an effortless work for God? God actually had to EXERT Himself to create?”

        The Bull does not seem to recognize that there is a categorical difference between human and divine attributes, which leads him to think that the law which He gives to human beings for them to follow applies to Him as well. If The Bull admits that God is not subject to the law, but the law is subject to God, there is nothing to prevent Him from abrogating His laws and issue easier ones. Him being able to issue easier laws means that the atonement does not necessarily correlate with the Glory of God. It would mean that the atonement, even if it happened, would still be another thing which God permitted, and not exclusively necessary to salvation and forgiveness. And Muslims certainly believe there are so many ways God can forgive.

        You said: “Why would it be a sin if He is the one who permitted it? Do you believe it’s a sin to eat pork?
        Also, if the atonement really works, can you now fulfill all the requirements of the law? Basically, what your supposed atonement did is to have Prophet Jesus killed and then God now issued easier rules for Christians to follow.”
        Both Jesus and Paul suggest that pork is now OK to eat so therefore it is no sin to eat pork. The moral laws are not easier, we just have more grace to follow them. The ceremonial laws (e.g. pork eating) are a different class of laws and are now done away with because of Christ. Sabbath keeping also appears to have been done away with.

        But was it a sin to eat pork before?
        Why is it not a sin now? Are you admitting that God can abrogate His laws? Can something which He abrogates be binding on Him, glorified and exalted is He?

        To add: whether moral law, or ceremonial laws, they are still LAWS which need to be followed, the breaking of which is considered SIN. The Israelites would have considered it sinful and unclean to consume food like pork. It was a sin then. You admit that it is not a sin now. Therefore, this is an easier law. This is a sin which He detests, according to you, yet Paul permitted it.

      • abu ismail jaafar says:

        “I wish I could reply to the other things he raised, but I have other engagements to attend to. I might join in the discussion later, insha’Allah. Wassalam.”

        Looking forward to you joining, brother. May Allah Most High bless you. The Bull is one persistent fellow, as seen in his non-stop replies, but at least he has stopped his “Allah was a pagan god” argument and is now engaging in a not-so-offensive manner. Wa alaykum as salaam.

  5. mrkiller says:

    “When we become without spot or blemish or blameless in his sight THEN we don’t fall short of his righteousness (his righteous standard). ”

    cut your silly nonsense about ‘blemish’

    animals know no sin so the ‘blemish’ has everything to do with the MEAT of the animal. the meat had to be without blemish. you christian talk an incredible amout of bs. every jewish term has to be hijacked/read according to greek christianity for you lot.

    there are standards. there are IMPOSSIBLE standards. creating emotions and placing them in human beings would prevent one from reaching a certain level. illnesses prevent one from reaching a certain level. injustice prevents one from reaching a certain level .

  6. mrkiller says:

    i wrote:
    in peter’s response why didn’t he say , “you FOOLS , jesus ATE with the PIG EATING GENTILES”

    if jesus was loving pig eating gentiles and would eat with them at the table why did it require a vision from god to petere to tell him it is okay to eat with gentiles? peter is being questioned by the apostles and the followers for why he is eating with gentiles, but why are these people questioning him? did they forget about that magical reunion they had with jesus and about taking christianity to gentiles? so why are the y question LITTLE thing like eating at the table with gentiles? oh, okay, WHY DID peter forget about his magical reunion with the ressurected man god? why did it take a second vision to inform peter that it is okay to eat with gentiles? remember acts was written by a pal of pauls so he would down play any problems between the jewish apostles and gentiles who followed jewish laws. i’m thinking if disPUTED WERE TAKING PLACE OVER WHO TO EAT WITH IMAGINE WHAT THEY THOUGHT OF THE IDEA that yHWH was HUNG by a buch of DIRTY PAGANS?

  7. mrkiller says:

    what does ‘thou shalt not murder’ mean to the one who is able to take life in less than a fraction of a second? they are telling us that he allowed his life to be taken? disgusting blasphemy.

  8. mrkiller says:

    salaam people

    if YHWH was blood thirsty, why did He say that POOR people can offer pigeons/doves? if He required blood to forgive why did He say to the people that they can offer flower and other items which have NO BLOOD? this means that He would forgive people who did not OFFER him flesh n blood from big animals like cow/goat/sheep ect
    so blood was NOT VITAL TO THE PROCESS
    if YHWH was so obsessed with BLOOD HE WOULD TELL RICH TO BUY BLOOD AND FLESH FOR THE POOR SO THEN THEY COULD OFFER IT TO HIM. But HE didn’t even though YHWH tells the rich to GIVE to the poor.

  9. mr says:

    “God gives paradise because of his grace.
    A question for you to ponder: How many works do you have to do to enter paradise?”

    if god gives paradise because of his grace , then why did he have to do deeds/works and then finally do the works of allowing pagans to nail his flesh on the cross? and all god requires of you is to believe that he was hanging on a cross because all your works are CRAP according to god in christianity. actually god in christianity says that human being = CRAP or his works is like menstrual blood. so what was so impressive about god doing crappy self abuse to himself? how does YOUR belief or you in your imagination see god hanging himself to please himself mean that his grace is open for you? you got to do works in order to reinforce your belief that your god hung himself to please himself right?

  10. The Bull says:

    Abu Ismail Jaafar said: “There is a categorical difference between God’s righteousness and man’s, as with all of God’s attributes. Which means, as you have pointed out, we never really become ‘deserving’ of His righteousness, and this even with your supposed atonement. That is, the christian, even though he is supposedly redeemed by Christ, is still being ‘accommodated’ by the largess of God.”

    My reply: The atonement is a divine exchange. Our sin is put upon Christ. In exchange, he gives us his righteousness. When God looks at the believer he sees the righteousness of Christ who is God.

    2 Corithians 5:21: “For God has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
    See also Philippians 3:9, Romans 3:10, Revelation 3:5 and Revelation 5:9-10 (and others)

    After this exchange then, we are no longer being ‘accommodated’ by the largeness of God. The debt is fully paid and we are the righteousness of God in Christ!

    Abu Ismail Jaafar said : “But was it a sin to eat pork before?
    Why is it not a sin now? Are you admitting that God can abrogate His laws? Can something which He abrogates be binding on Him, glorified and exalted is He?”

    The ceremonial laws were there to cleanse a person from sin and it for-shadowed Christ. (Hebrews 10:1). After Christ’s death, the ceremonial law is no longer to be observed:
    Colossians 2:14-17 : Therefore “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ” (Colossians 2:14-17)

    In a sense you are still observing the ceremonial laws of cleansing yourself from sins by washing, haj, prayers and dietary laws e.t.c. The ceremonial laws were a shadow of things to come. Rest in Christ for your salvation instead of all the rules and regulations (which are now obsolete).
    The ceremonial laws you live by are severely deficient by Gods standard under the Old Covenant. How much less now Christ has come?

    • abu ismail jaafar says:

      Abu Ismail Jaafar said: “There is a categorical difference between God’s righteousness and man’s, as with all of God’s attributes. Which means, as you have pointed out, we never really become ‘deserving’ of His righteousness, and this even with your supposed atonement. That is, the christian, even though he is supposedly redeemed by Christ, is still being ‘accommodated’ by the largess of God.”

      My reply: The atonement is a divine exchange. Our sin is put upon Christ. In exchange, he gives us his righteousness. When God looks at the believer he sees the righteousness of Christ who is God.

      My reply: Ergo, God sees His own righteousness, in the same way we Muslims believe that when the sinner repents, God sees His own Mercy. The only caveat is, blood is not necessary for this. If God sees the righteousness of Christ, who you say is God, then no ‘exchange’ happened. It is like a case of a person paying the debt of someone who owes him to himself. Therfore, the debt is not paid.

      Example:

      Bull owes Ibn Anwar $1 million
      Bull does not have anything to pay Ibn Anwar
      Ibn Anwar pays himself the $1 million!

      In God’s case, it need not be paid, because He is Merciful and Forgiving, and He is in no way any less Holy if we sin. We just need to repent, while recognising that He alone is God and He alone can forgive, i.e., be a Muslim. Still, repentance is not to God’s benefit, it is for ours. To go back to the example above, God will not just ask for payment if you admit to Him you sinned, you’ve got nothing to pay Him with, but you submit; God do with me as you will, even put me in Hell, I still submit, You are the One and Only God… He will even give you Paradise, insh’allah.

      2 Corithians 5:21: “For God has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
      See also Philippians 3:9, Romans 3:10, Revelation 3:5 and Revelation 5:9-10 (and others)

      After this exchange then, we are no longer being ‘accommodated’ by the largeness of God. The debt is fully paid and we are the righteousness of God in Christ!

      Again, no such ‘exchange’ happened (an ‘exchange’ between God and God?). Since you are not being accommodated by God, then you can now stand in front of Him, declare yourself worthy of Him. If that’s true, christian, what happened to this: ‘…however the Christian position would never say ‘we deserve’. We would say by grace God allows his glory to cover us.’
      Are you worthy of God now?

      Abu Ismail Jaafar said : “But was it a sin to eat pork before?
      Why is it not a sin now? Are you admitting that God can abrogate His laws? Can something which He abrogates be binding on Him, glorified and exalted is He?”

      The ceremonial laws were there to cleanse a person from sin and it for-shadowed Christ. (Hebrews 10:1). After Christ’s death, the ceremonial law is no longer to be observed:
      Colossians 2:14-17 : Therefore “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ” (Colossians 2:14-17)

      Hmm, interesting. Avoid pork, and you will be cleansed of sin. So the Israelites would not have sinned had they eaten pork. Again, you have not answered the question, because you know it will contradict your contention of easier laws= sin. Now it gets worse. Christ’s righteousness supposedly blotted out only the ceremonial laws, which Christians deem to be insignificant, but the more important moral laws cannot be overcome by Christ.

      In a sense you are still observing the ceremonial laws of cleansing yourself from sins by washing, haj, prayers and dietary laws e.t.c. The ceremonial laws were a shadow of things to come. Rest in Christ for your salvation instead of all the rules and regulations (which are now obsolete).
      The ceremonial laws you live by are severely deficient by Gods standard under the Old Covenant. How much less now Christ has come?

      My reply: These acts indeed cleanse one of sins, and even merit rewards, contingent on their performer being a believer with right intentions, as God wills. I’m not sure about the dietary laws ‘cleansing’ one of sins, though. Breaking the dietary laws is a sin, for the Muslims, as it was for the Israelites. In a sense, though, it ‘cleanses’ spiritually, since it cleanses the body. One can avoid forbidden food all his life, yet still be sinful. However, declaring something forbidden to be lawful, no matter how insignificant it seems to be is not just being sinful. It is being kafir, being blasphemous, denying God through denying His laws (read: Paul). Deficient? Is this what the atonement does? Make Christians mock God’s laws? so then, Christ only died to nail the ‘ceremonial’ laws to the cross? Does this make someone a better person? Remember, ‘ceremonial’ or not, breaking the least of these commandments is a sin. Are you saying then, that the Israelites avoided pork to cleanse themselves, but eating it would not be a sin? Did they cleanse themselves through the Sabbath? Were they not punished when they transgress the Sabbath? Are there two classes of sin?

      The Muslim, if God wills, is blessed with being whole, since he does not make a false dichotomy between ‘ceremonial’ and ‘moral’ laws, or ‘letter’ and ‘spirit’. This in contrast to the dajjalic, one-eyed approach of Christianity and Judaism.
      God Almighty, who is the God of Christ Jesus, will grant us Muslims rest, insh’allah. That without any credit on our part, but entirely due to His Mercy.

  11. mr says:

    yet is is god himself who used his own laws to get himself punished? wtheck is this comedy? it is god himself who never eat with pork eating gentiles ON THE SAME table because they weren’t circumicised like the galilean flesh god? what kind of a message is this foolish god giving? the ceremonial laws are there because of OBEDIANCE TO HIM. if we LOVE HIM THEN WE DO ANYTHING FOR HIM EVEN GIVE OUR LIVES TO HIM. If He asks us to do something difficult and people mock it (like you) then He tests our OBEDIANCE. ISLAM CLEARLY TEACHES IS TAWHEED (ONENESS) OF GOD IS INCORRECT then all “ceremonial laws” are nothing but USELESS. ISLAM CLEARLY HAS CONCEPTS IN IT LIKE TAWAKUL (TRUTH IN GOD) AND OTHER CONCEPTS LIKE IHSAAN (I THINK HIGHEST LEVEL OF DEPENDANCE ON GOD).
    The ceremonial laws forshadowed nothing about protestant krist , nothing. torah says,

    Numbers 15:32 When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then Yahweh said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.” 36 The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as Yahweh had commanded Moses.

    how come this god in cosmic form WAS STICKLER for ‘ceremonial laws’ but in flesh form didn’t even eat with gentiles on the same table?

  12. mr says:

    trust in God

  13. mr says:

    the christian always tell muslims about what it means to him when he crucifies his god in his christian imagination and what it means to him when he eats and drinks his gods flesh and blood at eucharist. but the sinner never asks about what hajj means to muslims. why the disgusting ‘my god killing himself to himself is better than your hajj rituals’

    first of all what is hajj rituals? what do muslims who are sincere learn?

    “The journey to the House of God is actually like a journey toward the Almighty. It is a reminder of Judgment Day when we will all be standing before our Maker. We travel toward the House built by Abraham (pbuh) along with his son Ishmael (pbuh) for the worship of the One God. The Prophet Abraham (pbuh) was chosen as the leader of mankind (Surah 2:124). He led and set an example which was to be adhered to by all who followed. From him descended a very long line of Prophets (pbut) and his very own two sons were bestowed with prophethood. This man was blessed with such greatness because of His undying love for God and his readiness to sacrifice everything to please Him. Thus, he was chosen with the honor of raising and then cleansing the central house of worship toward God; the one in which all the believers of humanity join together to pray to Allah (swt). He honourably disseminated and taught the only religion acceptable to God. All Prophets (pbut) after him were then responsible for reviving whatever of this religion may have been changed or forgotten. Of course, there may have been a few things that needed changing due to the development through time, but apart from this, it was the same religion Abraham (pbuh) introduced to humanity.

    Now when all this is kept in mind, it is logical to think that the Pilgrimage has a lot of meaning to it. In it, we are reminded of the efforts made by this pious leader of ours. Thus, we are motivated toward imitating him as best we can. Yet this is not all. Actually, to get a real good appreciation for the importance of this pilgrimage, we really need to be aware at least somewhat of what goes on in it.

    As with all the other directives in this religion, the pilgrimage aims to cleanse the soul. This is so because according the Qur’an it is only the purified that will be worthy of God’s pleasure and unending rewards in the hereafter. Reflecting upon the actions taken on this pilgrimage would soon reveal that it actually entails a resemblance in some way to all other religious duties. It is like an “all in one,” which nurtures and boosts the spirit of the person in quite a unique fashion. The piety emanating from it is magnificent and it is for this reason that the Prophet (pbuh) is narrated to have said:

    “One who performs Hajj in God’s way and does not speak obscene language, and does not commit sins, will come back as he was at the time of his birth.” (Bukhari No. 1421)

    Hence, when performed correctly; it transforms a person. It is like a rebirth. The importance of it can then obviously not be underestimated.

    The pilgrim travels to Hajj in order to worship the Almighty. In the process the person gives up his everyday life, uses his wealth for the purpose of getting there and spending in all other ways necessary while over there. This change in expenditure is a beautiful symbol of love for the Almighty – love that is far greater than the love for this world. Though he may not get something physical out of it, the pilgrim understands very well that spiritually he would come back a new person. This desire he cherishes in his heart and so, like a Mujahid marches on in God’s way. From this then, it becomes evident that the pilgrimage instills in a believer what all the other duties such as prayers, charity, fasting and Jihad aim to do as well. There are a number of characteristics that are strongly embedded in a pilgrim. The pilgrimage increases awareness and consciousness of God; it strengthens the faith and will to work for Him; it creates greater piety and fear of ever displeasing Him and produces a more profound love for Him and our fellow beings.

    While on Hajj, the pilgrim would put on unstitched white clothing known as Ihram. This symbolizes setting aside the pomp of worldliness and reminds us of the dead who also are bound by such simple clothes. It reminds us that this life is but temporary and that we will soon return to our Maker. It makes every pilgrim – no matter what his language, race, culture, appearance or level of religious knowledge maybe – on equal terms, all now in the same simple clothing with the same noble aim. Yes, people from all races and backgrounds unite in this pilgrimage and there is no discrimination between them! They are united with love as brethren and sisters in faith, all concerned with the worship of God. This can therefore really awaken and improve the thought process. It gives us an awareness of what truly matters.

    While we are in Ihram, we are forbidden from certain carnal pleasures such as sex with one’s spouse. We are not to overly engage in things other than the purpose for which we are there. We are not to get involved in petty disputes or any foul thoughts or feelings. We are not even to kill any living thing no matter how insignificant while we are in this simple clothing. Otherwise, the blessings that come with it will not have the desired effect. With such restrictions, being in Ihram is similar to fasting. Then the circumambulation of the Ka’bah is performed and this is a form of prayer unique to this House of God. The pilgrim begins this by either kissing the black stone in the Ka’bah or raising his hand toward it. This action signifies the renewal of his pledge to serve the Almighty obediently.

    The Sa’i (i.e. the walk around the two hills, Safa and Marwah, near the Ka’bah) signifies our submission to the Almighty and our willingness to support His cause. The best demonstration of such was given by Abraham (pbuh) who took his son and walked with him from Safa to Marwah in order to sacrifice him for the Almighty. As is clear, many of the performed actions during the pilgrimage actually symbolize important realities and being unaware of this could render them quite unproductive. Nonetheless, if we keep them in mind and perform them properly it can have a strong psychological effect on us. About this there are no doubts and many pilgrims bear testimony to it.

    Another symbolic act undertaken is the male cutting or shaving his hair and the female cutting a bit of her hair too. This has long been a demonstration of their belonging to God. In the stay at Arafat we are given the chance to plead before the Almighty and be graced with His all abounding Mercy before the Day comes when we stand before Him once again, only this time for judgment. The travel from here to Muzdalifah and Minaa and the short stay at a place during this journey makes one feel very much like a soldier moving on to fight in God’s cause. It also makes one feel like a traveler who is not here to stay; God is the goal, the hereafter will be our eternal abode. Then the throwing of stones is a symbol of our fight against all evil forces and our refusal to bow to their demands in place of God. Another great symbol is that of sacrificing animals, a life for God in place of our own just as Abraham (pbuh) was spared the sacrifice of his son. How grateful we should be that God provides an animal for us to express our emotions toward Him, and to symbolize our willingness to sacrifice our own life to Him! Yet this should also create awareness in us of the need to truly be prepared to sacrifice our life, our possessions and near and dear ones if need be in the test of this life, for the sake of God as Abraham (pbuh) so beautifully exemplified. It reminds us of death. It brings us closer to Him.

    Though I have only very briefly touched upon some of what goes on in the pilgrimage, I think it is more than enough to show why it has such significance in Islam. God consciousness, self-restraint, patience, generosity are all virtues that should be firmly embedded in a believer if he performs the rites with the right form and spirit. It would serve as a training course and all the soldier would then need is to ensure that he adheres to all his daily religious routine and as a result he will not only change his own life but the life of those who surround him. It is as though people are trained in these few days in the Islamic headquarter and then sent back to change others via their example.”

    see bull?

  14. mr says:

    if only these foolish people just looked at islam like they look at the death of thier god, then maybe there will be peaceful dialougue.

  15. The Bull says:

    Abu Ismail Jaafar said: “Ergo, God sees His own righteousness, in the same way we Muslims believe that when the sinner repents, God sees His own Mercy. The only caveat is, blood is not necessary for this. If God sees the righteousness of Christ, who you say is God, then no ‘exchange’ happened. It is like a case of a person paying the debt of someone who owes him to himself. Therfore, the debt is not paid.”

    Bull’s Reply:
    God is merciful, but where is the justice in your system? The sinner may repent but what about the crimes he has committed? Who is going to pay for that? Further to this what about any future sins that may be committed?
    Christ’s righteousness is given to the believer. Christ pays the sin debt and makes holy that which was unclean (dual action). The debt is paid to Gods justice department. The debt cannot be measured in monetary terms.

    Example:
    Abu Ismail Jaafar owes Gods justice payment (punishment) for sin.
    If Abu paid the price he would die forever.
    Abu still has to pay the price (punishment forever)
    Christ steps in and says he will be killed and punished instead.
    Abu either accepts this free gift or rejects it.
    Just because it is free doesn’t mean it’s cheap – Greg Lourie.

    Abu Ismail Jaafar said: “Again, no such ‘exchange’ happened (an ‘exchange’ between God and God?). Since you are not being accommodated by God, then you can now stand in front of Him, declare yourself worthy of Him. If that’s true, christian, what happened to this: ‘…however the Christian position would never say ‘we deserve’. We would say by grace God allows his glory to cover us.’
    Are you worthy of God now?”

    Bull’s reply: We are worthy of God when covered and imputed (given) the righteousness of Christ. This is because his righteousness is worthy. God has made us holy so he doesn’t have to ‘accommodate’ us. There is no sin to ‘accommodate’ any more. You are right, we don’t deserve this amazing love and grace that God has given us.

    Abu Ismail Jaafar said: “Hmm, interesting. Avoid pork, and you will be cleansed of sin. So the Israelites would not have sinned had they eaten pork. Again, you have not answered the question, because you know it will contradict your contention of easier laws= sin. Now it gets worse. Christ’s righteousness supposedly blotted out only the ceremonial laws, which Christians deem to be insignificant, but the more important moral laws cannot be overcome by Christ.”

    When I said easier laws, I was referring to the moral law (ten commandments). He will not compromise them. He will not ever say it is Ok to covet, steal or to commit adultery. Gods righteous standard is the same and will not change.
    The ceremonial laws are very different; these have been done away with because Christ fulfills them forever.
    The ceremonial laws were both in place of and to pre-figure Christ. They were insufficient and had to be repeated. Eating pork was forbidden because the animal was deemed unclean and would defile. Now Christ is a person’s righteousness. You don’t need to make sacrifices and try to be clean by one’s diet.
    In a sense this is easier because one doesn’t have to participate in a long list of ceremonial laws to try to cleanse oneself.

    Christ’s righteousness replaced the ceremonial laws. The ceremonial laws are there to make atonement for transgression of the moral law. The moral law has not been blotted out; It still stands.

    Read Acts 15:5-11 especially verse 10: “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?” (referring to the law of Moses (ceremonial).)

    Abu Ismail Jaafar said: “These acts indeed cleanse one of sins, and even merit rewards.”

    Bull’s reply: “No. As I pointed out before you need to do the sacrifices for sin and adhere to all the law of Moses (ceremonial). Even if you do this, this is now obsolete because of what Christ has done.”

    Hebrews 10:29 “How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?”

    • Abu Ismail Jaafar says:

      In God’s case, we don’t have to pay for some thing we sincerely repent of, since He is the Merciful. It is having our debts forgiven us, as we forgive those who owe us debts (sounds familiar, Bull?). I gave you an example in monetary terms because the ‘Lord’s Prayer’ did not disdain to cite OUR human forgiveness of debts as a comparison for God’s Forgiveness. But God is more merciful and more forgiving of debts than someone who lends billions of dollars to some one who does not pay it back. You see, when someone owes us money, the person HAS to pay for it, otherwise we will be incurring loss. If a human being, who is affected by the consequences of loss incurred by not paying the debt, is exhorted to forgive without asking for any payment, what more of the Most Merciful God? It’s the same with the parable of the prodigal son. The son squandered a fortune, but was forgiven despite apparently having nothing to pay back his father for such a huge amount (can we truly, honestly, fit the concept of atonement in the ‘Lord’s Prayer’ or the parable of the prodigal son without distorting its message?).

      So:

      Abu Ismail Jaafar owes Gods justice payment (punishment) for sin.
      If Abu paid the price he would die forever.
      God’s Mercy outstrips His Wrath/Justice, and is more than enough to pay for it
      Abu does not have to pay the price if only he acknowledged his sin and submitted to God as a Muslim.
      Abu either accepts this free gift of Mercy which outstrips Wrath, of forgiveness without blood, or rejects it.

      (He hath prescribed for Himself mercy. (al-An‘am 6:12),

      Your Lord hath prescribed for Himself mercy, that whoso of you doeth evil through ignorance and repenteth afterward thereof and doeth right, (for him) lo! He is Forgiving, Compassionate. (al-An‘am 6:54),

      “God says, Great and Glorious is He, ‘My mercy outstrips my wrath.’” ~ Sahih Muslim no. 7146, Kitab al-Tawbah

      Who is going to pay for that? Further to this what about any future sins that may be committed?

      My reply:
      God is going to ‘pay’ for the sin by waiving the punishment with His Mercy, if He so Wills. He may also use the offender’s sin as a merit to the victim, insh’allah. That way, the sinner is forgiven, the victim is appeased, all through God’s Grace. Like you said, if it is God forgiving a sinner, then we don’t see any problem because He is God. For future sins? God forgives repeatedly, as such is His Attribute, the Oft-Forgiving. How about future sins in your justice system, in your economy of salvation? This puts you in a bind actually. You have no more man-gods to be crucified (not that there was one in the first place). As Mr asked you previously, do sins travel back to the past to attach to Christ’s body?

      Bull: God has made us holy so he doesn’t have to ‘accommodate’ us. There is no sin to ‘accommodate’ any more. You are right, we don’t deserve this amazing love and grace that God has given us.

      And bro. Ibn anwar is right. This is indeed a cop out. Born again Christians still sin, and you know it. This is why although the actions of people who profess a certain faith or religion do not necessarily belie the religion itself, if they claim that sin is wiped out because of their religion, then this is false in the case of Christianity.

      Bull: When I said easier laws, I was referring to the moral law (ten commandments)……

      The ten commandments include the Sabbath according to your Bible, hence a part of the moral law, according to you. This ‘ceremonial'(moral?) law which Paul considers to be AGAINST Christians (but which Prophet Jesus, alayhis salam, supposedly considered to have been created FOR man) is put even before honoring one’s parents. Yet you don’t keep the Sabbath anymore. So are there two kinds of sins? ‘ceremonial’ sins, and ‘moral’ sins? If Israelites transgress the ‘ceremonial’ law, was it a lesser sin? Or not a sin at all? Was abstaining from the forbidden fruit a ‘moral’ sin or a ‘ceremonial’ sin?

      To Mr:

      ask abu jafar if he would like to be punished on a cross or eternal hell fire, i am sure abu jafar would choose to be punished on a cross for his sins rather than hell fire. any one would choose being punished on a cross then punished in hell for God knows how long.

      Yes, I’d rather hang on the cross for three days or even more, than spend an instant in Hell. Many human beings have been crucified but spending an instant in Hell will be enough to erase every good memory one has. Even some of the Prophet Muhammad’s, salla Allahu alayhi wa salam, companions, have been crucified, yet in their humility and reverent fear of God they always pray to be saved from the fire of Hell.

      Bull’s reply: “No. As I pointed out before you need to do the sacrifices for sin and adhere to all the law of Moses (ceremonial). Even if you do this, this is now obsolete because of what Christ has done.”

      My reply: We Muslims don’t think of the Shariah of the Prophet Muhammad, salla Allahu alayhi wa salam, in the context of the Mosaic law, especially in the Christian sense of ‘old’ covenant and ‘new’ covenant. This is a Pauline Christian reading which entails dichotomy of ‘letter’ against ‘spirit’. To the Muslim the Final Covenant of Muhammad is the fulfillment (not abolition, as in the case of Paul who considers some of the law to be against Christians) of the Primordial Covenant between God and human kind, the covenant of ‘Am I not your Lord’. The Law of Allah revealed to Muhammad for the beautifully complements the Spirit of this Law.

  16. mr says:

    “God is merciful, but where is the justice in your system? The sinner may repent but what about the crimes he has committed? Who is going to pay for that? Further to this what about any future sins that may be committed?
    Christ’s righteousness is given to the believer. Christ pays the sin debt and makes holy that which was unclean (dual action). The debt is paid to Gods justice department. The debt cannot be measured in monetary terms.”

    so if homosexuality was unclean christ became a homosexual on the cross (remember became sin) and made homosexuality clean? so now men can marry men?

    do you see your twisted thinking can justify any filth? is there any wonder why american is full of christians practicing all sorts of filth? and why do they care? they know there deeds according to thier god are like mentrual cycle of a woman (torah) and they teach their children at young age that god is not impressed with their (childrens) works , already psychological rape of childs mind. is it any womder your justice system is screwed? your justice system is like this. rape a girl and then the girl like a lunatic says, ” i’ll take the punishment of the rapist” this means the girl needs to see a psychiatrist.

    ask abu jafar if he would like to be punished on a cross or eternal hell fire, i am sure abu jafar would choose to be punished on a cross for his sins rather than hell fire. any one would choose being punished on a cross then punished in hell for God knows how long.
    you don’t know about islam. it don’t make you a COWARD like christianity does. it don’t make you hide behind the foolish deeds of a god who enjoyed abusing himself using pagan hands, islam says GOD owns everything even our flesh and blood and flesh and blood is not MORE IMPORTANT than the spirit.

    If you owe me a hundred dollars and I hold you to it unless someone pays me the owed sum, did I really forgive your debt? It seems not, especially since the very concept of forgiveness is about releasing a debt not collecting it from someone else.

    i didn’t forgive any dept you owed me, i didn’t even knock off a percentage to make it easier for you even though your eyes were FULL of tears asking for discount. only when i abused my own arm by cutting it with a blade did i get satisfaction. this is sick sadist sodomy being practice on body.

    god in christianity is only satisfied after he feels the pleasures of pain.
    or what do they call it child abuse in the trinity?

    islam aswell as judaism says that the one you sinned against ask him to forgive you and buy him something as a gift to show your sincerety. and i’m sure in islamic justice system severe crimes are punished and forgiveness can come after punishment or it can come BEFORE punishment.

    god is christianity is VERY SELFISH
    you know why? because he is only PLEASEd with his own SUFFERING even though he was hiding in flesh.

    let mcdonal make the point

    “But what shall we say adequate to confront the base representation that it is not punishment, not the suffering of the sinner that is required, but suffering! nay, as if this were not depth enough of baseness to crown all heathenish representation of the ways of God, that the suffering of the innocent is unspeakably preferable in his eyes to that of the wicked, as a make-up for wrong done! nay, again, ‘in the lowest deep a lower deep,’ that the suffering of the holy, the suffering of the loving, the suffering of the eternally and perfectly good, is supremely satisfactory to the pure justice of the Father of spirits!

    Not all the suffering that could be heaped upon the wicked could buy them a moment’s respite, so little is their suffering a counterpoise to their wrong; in the working of this law of equivalents, this lex talionis, the suffering of millions of years could not equal the sin of a moment, could not pay off one farthing of the deep debt.

    But so much more valuable, precious, and dear, is the suffering of the innocent, so much more of a satisfaction—observe—to the justice of God, that in return for that suffering another wrong is done: the sinners who deserve and ought to be punished are set free.”

    YOUR JUSTICE SYSTEM just got screwed , blued and tatooed.

  17. mr says:

    krist ian wrote:Christ’s righteousness is given to the believer. Christ pays the sin debt and makes holy that which was unclean (dual action). The debt is paid to Gods justice department. The debt cannot be measured in monetary terms.”

    “Thus, a man commits a malicious murder, is indicted and tried by the proper court; but, by the bribery or death of witnesses, or by corrupting the court, he procures a verdict of acquittal, and is set free. This verdict operates as a barrier against subsequent prosecution and punishment. This is exactly the state in which substitutionary satisfaction puts all for whom Christ died. ”

    remember your deeds are like mentrual blood, you can never rise above sin. remember 2000 years of christianity has proved that DEPENDING on a deed of SELF abuse did not FIX ANYTHING up in the universe. your people go in iraq and DROP bombs on innocent iraqi civilians because you tell your self that your deeds = menstrual blood, but you delude your self thinkinng that god liked self abuse of himself so much that he does not hold your sins against you anymore. your religion is like the pharisees who manipulated the laws TO ALLOW MORE SINS TO come about. or it is like those lawyers who use apologetic to free a dirty rapist. your justice system is dirty.

    • The Bull says:

      Romans chapter 6 answers this accusation.

      Romans 6:1 :”What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?”
      Romans 6:2 :”By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? ”
      Romans 6:13 : “Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.”
      Romans 6:15 :”What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

      You said: ‘your people go in iraq and DROP bombs on innocent iraqi civilians.”

      My reply. : Yes, the loss of innocents is tragic.
      However, firstly I’m not American. Secondly, they wern’t targeting ‘innocent civilians’. They could have carpet bombed the entire nation with B52s etc if they wanted to and killed everyone. I’m sure if Saddam had had his way (along with other despots), the US and the entire west would be vaporised (remember what he did to the Kurds and even his own family!).

      • Ibn Anwar says:

        Romans 6 answers nothing but creates more problems for you. Had the “grace” that is supposedly offered by Jesus’ sacrifice frees the believer from sin Paul would not have to rebuke the idea that people could go on sinning under the said “grace”. The fact that Paul had to actually address this issue in a letter to the Romans means that believers in those locality believed or quite probably committed sins and thought that it was okay since Christ had already died for them. Where is forgiveness in Jesus’ alleged death on the cross that according to you remits your sins? This is not forgiveness. This is an evil god demanding and exacting the full price and it is only upon full payment that the subject is released from “bondage”. If someone owed you something and then you demand that he pay you back the full price is that forgiveness? He is only released after he has paid you back in full. That is not forgiveness at all. But a further problem arises when one analyses the alleged sacrifice. Nobody offers anything but an innocent man went and died anyway. Who offered Jesus? Earlier in one of your comments you mentioned that the Old Testament foreshadows Jesus’ alleged sacrifice. In the Old Testament a sin offering is only legitimate if it is offered by the sinner. The Kohen Gadol must be there to receive and process the offering for the sinner and the offering is valid ONLY for past sins that is to be shed within Jerusalem. Jesus’ alleged sacrifice fails on every account. Above all else the sacrifice involved animals and never a human being. Ezekiel 18 and elsewhere are very clear on that the one who sins is the only one responsible. None pays for the other. But was the alleged sacrifice of Jesus sufficient for all men? Well, he was but one man, was he not? Martin Luther said that mere man cannot die for all of humanity. So who died on the cross? Christians like to say that God the Son died on it. But when probed further, they will deny that God actually died on it for fear of contradicting 1 Timothy 6:16 which clearly says God can never die. So who really died on the cross? The God nature or the human nature? If the human nature died, but not the God nature then is Martin Luther correct in saying that a man’s death is insufficient? Luther argued that it was really the second person of the Trinity who is himself fully God that died, but the divine nature survived and only the human part died. The reason why he says God died is because the human part exists in one person with the divine part who is the second in the Trinity. Can you not see the nonsense involved here The Bull? A further logical problem that I raised much earlier prompting the complete silence from the Bull is the idea that a most loving God sends His only son whom He supposedly loves to die for all of humanity. John 3:16 claims that God(the Father) loves the world so much that He gives His only son(that is to die). But that begs the question, “Does the Father not love the Son equal to the amount he does the world or more?” If you had to save someone from certain death do you shove your son in front of the firing squad(even if the son submits to your decision) or do you yourself go? If you had to save a person from getting hit by a car do you kick your son in front of the car or do you fling yourself and save both your son and the one whom you wish to save since you love both? How can a completely innocent man die for a completely evil one so that the latter may be forgiven? This is perhaps the most stupendously nonsensical hogwash to have ever been formulated in human existence. Imagine you have a judge presiding over a case involving 6 killers and rapists. They are found guilty as charged and the number of deaths at their hands exceed 60 women and over 40 rapes. For some strange and weird reason the judge treats them nicely and says that he totally loves them and because of that he hesitates to punish them and sees no other way to save them except one. The judge calls the bailiff and tells him to bring his one and only child of four to the court. The child stands before his towering father and is told, “my Son, you know how much I love you. You are my most obedient son you will have to do this for me and those sinners standing over there.” The son being the innocent little child that he is nods and agrees. The father then says this is my son with whom I am well pleased and I love him so much, but I love those sinners and evil doers, rapists and murderers too! So take my son and crucify him in public so that he will bear the sins of those killers and rapists and others like them. The son runs to the father, crying and praying, “OH FATHER IF IT IS POSSIBLE PLEASE LET THIS CUP PASS FROM ME!” The Father shakes his head and abandons his son to death. Whilst crucified the son cries out in agony, “MY FATHER, MY FATHER, why have you forsaken me????” The Father is not moved even a little bit and instead gives the guilty rapists and killers a blow kiss and tells them that they are now free and their sins are completely blocked out. This is precisely the scenario that you expect me to believe in The Bull. You along with your Christian brethren are the sickest lot of blasphemers the world has ever seen for allotting to God something so absurdly heinous and senseless.

        You said:
        However, firstly I’m not American. Secondly, they wern’t targeting ‘innocent civilians’. They could have carpet bombed the entire nation with B52s etc if they wanted to and killed everyone. I’m sure if Saddam had had his way (along with other despots), the US and the entire west would be vaporised (remember what he did to the Kurds and even his own family!).

        My reply:
        The above shows the level of ignorance that this person has. Just look to the left of your screen at the top of the bar and you will see the number of deaths in iraq since the US-led invasion started. That’s more than all of the deaths that took place under Saddam. Since when do two wrongs make a right? No, they could not have carpet bombed the entire nation. The American people would have slaughtered their leaders if they did something as inhumane as that. How do you know that Saddam would have wanted to vaporise the whole of of the West? Do you have some insight into Saddam’s mind that none of us do?Don’t you know that Saddam was equipped and funded by the US until he harmed another of its allies that happened to be more important to the States than Iraq i.e. Kuwait? You said that America did not target innocent civilians. That is the most loony thing you have ever said so far. Prior to the Iraqi invasion America along with its allies imposed an embargo on Iraq. As a result according to human rights commissions over 100 000 innocent Iraqi children and babies died of malnutrition and starvation. Embargoes had little to no effect on the ruling elite. The sole purpose and real effect of an embargo are to impoverish the lowest in a society as such 100 000 children died. Who is mourning for them? You? Forget it. America might as well have shot those children in the head which is actually a better death in terms of pain, albeit more gory and horrendous looking. What you need to do is educate yourself by watching the documentary FUEL by Josh Tickell to understand that the war on Iraq was about OIL above all else. It has nothing to do with freeing the country from Saddam and transforming it into a democracy. Over 100 000 million dollars is spent a day to sustain the war. That money could have saved millions of lives in Africa and all over the world from diseases and poverty. After FUEL watch ‘The War That You Don’t See’ by award winning journalist John Pilger. From that documentary you will learn about the deaths of children gloated over by their killers. Need I say more? Go and purchase the International Best Seller ‘Why Do People Hate America’ by Ziauddin Sardar and Meryll Wyn Davies. Whilst you’re at it get hold of Collins Piper’s the ‘High Priests of War’ and Vernon Coleman’s ‘Rogue Nation’. Read these and I have yet a whole list of books for you to buy and learn from. I will ask you to refrain from beating the drums of war on my site. There is no place for supporters of murderers here. Do you understand?

      • The Bull says:

        Thanks for the advice. I might watch one of those vids.
        I think Saddam would have done just about anything to stop America from invading and defeating his regime hence my ‘vaporised’ comment. Although America does have corruption, I would hate to think what would happen if say Iran had the military capability of the US. America may actually be the less of many evils.

  18. mr says:

    you know this nonsense of ‘fullfilling’ the laws is what exactly? did bulls god full fill the death penalty laws by stoning to death adulterors? how do you fullfill laws? you either OBEY them or break them. i fullfilled road traffic laws , now you can run red lights all you want. disOBEY all you want. didn’t i say christianity is like the evil lawyer /pharisee who manipulates law to create more sins?

  19. mr says:

    his god paid the debt? so what the hell happens when the christian goes on to sin like murder + murder + murder does the christian simply crucify his god in his christian imagination? or is the fine generated again an d his god need to crucify himself again or does the christian crucify his god in his imagination again and again? if his god piad the price then the whole damn point of forgiveness means what? you FORGIVE because some one sinned against you . if the det/price is fully paid for, then what is the POINT of forgiveness? you don’t have to owe anything . so why do you christians ask god to forgive you when you are ‘made righteous’ because of his finite blood/or his blood PAID for you ?
    do you see how REDUNDANT forgiveness becomes?

    • The Bull says:

      A Christian shouldn’t go on to murder, murder, murder. If he/she does then their repentance is probably not genuine and they have not really believed. Once born again, a person has a new nature that will not want to sin willfully. However, God can forgive any transgression if the person will repent sincerely. Read 1 John 1:9-10.

      • Abu Ismail Jaafar says:

        However, God can forgive any transgression if the person will repent sincerely

        And this is what we believe in Islam, minus the drama and logical problems of the atonement.

  20. Ibn Anwar says:

    haha typical born again mentality. That’s a cop out and you know it. Was Jimmy Swaggart a true born again Christian? Millions of born again Christians certainly believed so. Were they duped by the devil in promoting this born again champion of theirs? Now, if Swaggart is just one solitary case then we may have no case. But, he is joined by Kent Hovind, Reverend Gary Aldridge(http://unveiling-christianity......-children/) , Anis Shorrosh, Ted Haggard, Jim Baker and so many more. The idea that when one is born again and will never willfully sin after that is absolutely false. If you can find one bad fruit from the tree then the whole thing should be thrown into the fire according to Jesus’ criterion that you are bound to. In that case we can produce hundreds of examples of rotten fruits! Your brand of Christianity ought to be thrown into the fire according to Jesus’ words. Why will you not harken?

  21. mrK says:

    what the hell is going on here? HOW CAN YOU REPENT WHEN YOU GOT NOTHING TO REPENT ABOUT? if your gods silly sacrifice to himself cleared your back account of sins past, present and future, then what the hell have you got to repent about? do you not see that your god will not hold any of your sins against you because he was pleased/appeased with his killing of himself so much that he released you? you have totally made the idea of repentance and forgiveness USELESS.

  22. mrK says:

    OR DO YOU people not see that god killed himself to himself in order to PREVENT himself to APPLY his OWN WRATH on yourselves? so what have you got to REPENT about?

  23. mrK says:

    ALLAH IS FREE FROM THIS NONSENSE.

  24. mrK says:

    HOLD on a second, let me quote torah

    Isaiah 29:13 – And the Lord said: “Because this people has come near [Me], and with its mouth and with its lips has honored Me, but has drawn its heart far away from Me, and its fear of Me has become a commandment of men that was learned by rote.

    your religion teaches that any sins is hurtful to god. your religion teaches that ANY LEVEL of sin i.e very low, low, intermediate HIGH, all levels hurtful to god. you christians go to church crucifying your god, what makes you think your repentance is genuine? isn’t that ARROGANCE? if so, then you SINNED. if you repented and still CONTINUED to sin, then what was the point of your repentance, you crucfied your god repented and went on to sin . so when you are in church is your mind somewhere else ? if so, then your heart sinned for it should be with god. do you see the problem? IF YOUR meat puppet god in flesh and blood payed for all your sins , then WHY DO YOU repent for your sins or ask FORGIVENESS? remember the point about how rapist is freed by evil lawyer using apologetic to free evil and punish another? that’s christianity .

  25. The Bull says:

    Hi Ibu Ismail Jaafar

    You said: ‘If a human being, who is affected by the consequences of loss incurred by not paying the debt, is exhorted to forgive without asking for any payment, what more of the Most Merciful God?

    A: Remember that God is the one to whom the real debt is owed. You have to get in his ‘good book’ more than the person who has been offended. (i.e. the person can’t send you to hell). When you sin, you sin against two persons, God and the person affected.

    You said: “The son squandered a fortune, but was forgiven despite apparently having nothing to pay back his father for such a huge amount.”

    A: Yes. That’s called grace. However, as a true believer, he would have followed and believed in the ceremonial laws that demand sacrifice for sins. He is forgiven only through that system.

    You said: “God is going to ‘pay’ for the sin by waiving the punishment..”

    A: So God waives the punishment by paying for it? Can you see that the punishment still stands. The punishment is waived to the transgressor only to be meted out some other way. (i.e. punishment on something else).

    You said: “As Mr asked you previously, do sins travel back to the past to attach to Christ’s body?”

    A: Hebrew 9:11-15 tells us that Christ’s sacrifice was/is ultimately in the heavenly realm that transcends time.

    You said: “And bro. Ibn anwar is right. This is indeed a cop out. Born again Christians still sin, and you know it.”

    A: I never said they didn’t. Ideally they shouldn’t, but if they do, they have the mercy of the cross to appeal to. See 1 John 1:9-10.

    You said: “The ten commandments include the Sabbath according to your Bible, hence a part of the moral law, according to you”

    A: OK. The sabbath is an exception in the ten commandments that no longer has to be observed.

    You said: “
    and your reply to Steve:
    You said “In the Gospels, Jesus forgave sins before he died.”
    Remember, we think he is God so it is not a problem.
    A bit nebulous here, sir, as you said about the Islamic belief of God using any means He pleases to cover His creation with His Rahma and to forgive sins.”

    A: Yes, but you omitted the next sentence I wrote, namely: “Also, Jesus had the power to forgive sins because it was he who would appropriate that forgiveness on the cross.”
    I still pointed back to the cross as the only means.

    My statement was: The ‘whatever manner he pleases’ (to forgive sins) that you propose is a very nondescript and nebulous concept.
    It dawned on me recently that it is NOT a ‘whatever manner he pleases’ (to forgive sins) as you have suggested. It is through the ‘ceremonial’ laws of Islam such as washing, hajj, Ramadan, prayers etc. You are seeking ‘atonement’ and forgiveness by paying for the debt yourself. You can’t possibly achieve this according to the bible. You must accept the free gift of God through Jesus Christ.

    • Abu Ismail Jaafar says:

      A: Remember that God is the one to whom the real debt is owed. You have to get in his ‘good book’ more than the person who has been offended. (i.e. the person can’t send you to hell). When you sin, you sin against two persons, God and the person affected.

      True. The real debt is owed to God. But God is more merciful than any person who can be offended. You get in His good book if you repent to Him.

      A: Yes. That’s called grace. However, as a true believer, he would have followed and believed in the ceremonial laws that demand sacrifice for sins. He is forgiven only through that system.

      So, where in the parable can you fit some sort of payment for the fortune he squandered? Perhaps some sort of compensation to the father? Nothing at all is implied. Can you tell me what the message of the parable is, if not freely forgiving a sinner without any retribution, provided he is truly repentant?

      A: So God waives the punishment by paying for it? Can you see that the punishment still stands. The punishment is waived to the transgressor only to be meted out some other way. (i.e. punishment on something else).

      Notice the quotation marks on ‘pays’ (God is going to ‘pay’ for the sin by waiving the punishment with His Mercy, if He so Wills.). No, it is not really paying the debt. I have stated repeatedly, nothing we can do can pay for even our existence, much less our sins. It is entirely due to the Mercy of God that anything is ‘credited’ to us at all (notice the quotation marks again). The answer is in the first paragraph I typed:

      In God’s case, we don’t have to pay for some thing we sincerely repent of, since He is the Merciful. It is having our debts forgiven us, as we forgive those who owe us debts (sounds familiar, Bull?). I gave you an example in monetary terms because the ‘Lord’s Prayer’ did not disdain to cite OUR human forgiveness of debts as a comparison for God’s Forgiveness. But God is more merciful and more forgiving of debts than someone who lends billions of dollars to some one who does not pay it back. You see, when someone owes us money, the person HAS to pay for it, otherwise we will be incurring loss. If a human being, who is affected by the consequences of loss incurred by not paying the debt, is exhorted to forgive without asking for any payment, what more of the Most Merciful God? It’s the same with the parable of the prodigal son. The son squandered a fortune, but was forgiven despite apparently having nothing to pay back his father for such a huge amount (can we truly, honestly, fit the concept of atonement in the ‘Lord’s Prayer’ or the parable of the prodigal son without distorting its message?).

      So no, the punishment does not stand, God willing (this is not to say that He does not punish, though). Punishment does not have to be meted out (again, you’re imposing obligations on Him!). He can use the offender’s sin as a merit to the offended person, again, God willing.

      A: I never said they didn’t. Ideally they shouldn’t, but if they do, they have the mercy of the cross to appeal to. See 1 John 1:9-10.

      If they still sin, they’re still the same as “every stinking sinner”, to quote Martin Luther. But now you have the excuse to sin and say that you’ll be forgiven because of the atonement. Just repent! The atonement would have been more consistent if sin completely disappears from Christians. Remember that He despises sins?

      A: Yes, but you omitted the next sentence I wrote, namely: “Also, Jesus had the power to forgive sins because it was he who would appropriate that forgiveness on the cross.”
      I still pointed back to the cross as the only means.

      Quite true. I omitted it because it really does not add anything at all. You still pointed to the cross, but you don’t get the point. Christ was supposedly not yet crucified when he forgave people (as people have been forgiven in the OT, as cited by this article, care to comment on them?). You’re statement that there is no problem because Jesus is supposedly God contradicts your assertion that the cross is needed for forgiveness. If the cross is needed, then there is a problem if God forgave people before he supposedly died on the cross, right?

      My statement was: The ‘whatever manner he pleases’ (to forgive sins) that you propose is a very nondescript and nebulous concept.
      It dawned on me recently that it is NOT a ‘whatever manner he pleases’ (to forgive sins) as you have suggested. It is through the ‘ceremonial’ laws of Islam such as washing, hajj, Ramadan, prayers etc. You are seeking ‘atonement’ and forgiveness by paying for the debt yourself. You can’t possibly achieve this according to the bible. You must accept the free gift of God through Jesus Christ.

      Again, no. I have directed your attention more than once to the Prophet Muhammad’s statement that none of our deeds enter us into paradise, but the command to do good remains. This effectively takes out any footing you have for introducing your concept of atonement to Muslims. The ‘whatever manner He pleases’ I was referring to refers to His laws which we need to follow. It is His prerogative to change these if it pleases Him. As you admitted, there is an exception for the Sabbath. We Muslims don’t see this as an exception, but as a ‘rule’ that God is the Lawgiver. His laws are subject to Him, while He is not subject to the law. The rituals you mentioned are indeed important and must be fulfilled, precisely because God ordered us to do them.

      By the way, sir, exceptions mean that perfect justice is not met. If He can exempt you from the Sabbath, as you mentioned, surely He can exempt you from the other laws. Lest you reply by asking if God can permit evil such as murder, lying, etc (or working during Sabbath) then let this not bother you. Just ask yourself where you got the idea that murder, lying and the like (the moral laws you are mentioning) are evil. Is it not from God’s laws? And is it not God who is the Lawgiver? So the law is measured by God’s standard, not that God is measured by the standard of the law.

      • Abu Ismail Jaafar says:

        Clarification, though. God ‘changing’ His laws is not equal to God changing His mind. what it means is that in His eternal knowledge, He knows up to when a certain law He revealed is effective and binding on a certain group of people (abrogation). When I said whatever manner He pleases, that does not mean that tomorrow there might be another Shariah! I was referring to the entire history of God’s laws revealed to people. Any law He reveals is beneficial, useful, and acquires merit, because of His Will.

    • Abu Ismail Jaafar says:

      A: Hebrew 9:11-15 tells us that Christ’s sacrifice was/is ultimately in the heavenly realm that transcends time.

      And God’s Mercy (Rahma) transcends time as well. We agree that a sin of limited, temporal nature has everlasting consequences. Yet somehow you don’t agree with us that Grace is everlasting in such a way that it can cover sin without blood.

      • mrK says:

        the missionary is forgetting the fact that god is SLOW to punish. had the people of noah repented and joined him on the boat, God would have forgiven. ask, if god cannot forgive, why did he give TIME to the people of noah? why not INSTANTLY destroy them like he did later on? does God really need to punish another person to forgive? violence is used to bring justice, to apprehend murderer, to SAVE innocent people, why would the same being use violence unto himself? the being who can love instead of using brutal violence. what is this obession with violence? god has no other way, but violence? bull is saying that his god is Qurbaan for a people, but many have given Qurbani and DON’T ASK for appreciation because they never made their qurbani known.

  26. mrK says:

    “…What shall I approach Adonai and bow myself before the Supreme God with? Should I approach Him with olah-sacrifices or calves in their first year? Will Adonai be pleased by thousands of rams, or tens of thousands of rivers of oil? Should I give my own first-born child [in payment] for my rebellion or the fruit of my own body [in payment] for my soul’s errors? Mankind, He has already told you what is ‘good’, what it is that Adonai wants of you – only to act justly, to love kindness, and to walk modestly with your God” (Michah 6:6-8).

    he used ‘only’ ONLY GOD WANTS

    deed to LOVE KINDNESS

    ACT JUSTLY

    WALK MODESTLY

    ONLY GOD WANTS THIS. NOTHING MORE , NOTHING LESS. when we say it is ONLY A CAT, THEN IT MEANS nothing OTHER THAN A CAT.

    it is COMPLETE lunacy to think that anothers deed ATONENED for us. when the whole point of life on earth is to do DEEDS yourself. do you send intermediaries on your behalf to the old man you sinned against or do you approach him directly? you can approach the person you sinned against DIRECTLY , but to approach god you need his human sacrificial deed as an INTERMEDIARY? u have beef with catholic saints, but you doing exactly the same thing when you use the human sacrifice as an intermediary. do you see?

  27. mrkiller says:

    i don’t even understand the point of debate anymore. i read a verse in the qur’aan which says that they are not to ask WHAT ALLAH DOES, but HE WILL ASK you WHAT YOU DID. So if ALLAH forgives than nothing, not christianity, not jezuz, not paul , not ANYONE can stop HIM.

  28. Dwight Osborne says:

    For this reason came into Jesus Christ into the world as Savior and Messiah that God’s requirement for a sacrifice for sin be made. You are in error when you quote these Scriptures saying that no sacrifice was required. As these quotes are from the Old Testament, any devout Jew of that time would have known they he/she was required to sacrifice a perfect, spotless lamb in order to fulfill God’s ultimate requirement for the forgiveness: the shedding of blood. And we as Christians understand that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross satisfied the requirement of sacrifice once and for all. I serve a risen and living Lord. Do you?

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      The error is with you Dwight Osborne for thinking that God is like a vampire and desires blood. The verses and passages that I have cited such as Jonah 3 clearly show God’s mercy is untethered by blood sacrifice. An entire nation was forgiven simply by repenting(teshuvah) to God in ‘sack cloth and ashes’. There was no blood offered at all. Even in the Levitical regulation for sin and guilt offering it was not only blood that was given in order to receive forgiveness of sins. Rather, grain was also given as Leviticus 2 makes it plain. This too undermines the Christian position that blood is the only way. All the other passages cited in the article unequivocally show that God forgives without the need for blood. I have written a related article regarding forgiveness rendered without blood found in the New Testament. The article may be accessed here http://unveiling-christianity......-no-blood/ In that article I prove that Jesus’ view was that total forgiveness of sins takes place without a drop of blood shed. If one can illustrate just one example of where God forgives without blood then the entire Christian soteriology fails. We have not given only one but dozens. So scripture disproves the Christian notion. How about we look at it from a rational and logical point of view now. Jesus said to his followers to forgive seventy times seven in Matthew 18:22. Did he tell you that you need to have your only son killed before you render the forgiveness? If someone stole from you and later you feel like you can and want to forgive him are you required to kill your son in order to do so? No, if you did it you will be regarded as a murderer or insane. John 3:16 says for God so loved the world that He gave His only son…God there means the Father and the Father loved the world so much that He was willing to sacrifice His son. But what about the son? Does the son not love the world equal to the Father so that the Father would be sent instead of the Son to be sacrificed? It says that God(the Father) loved the world, but did He not love the Son equal to loving the world or more? If He did why did He not send Himself rather than sending the Son? If your son was in harm’s way you would protect him even if it caused you your life. You don’t shove your son into the path of a moving vehicle to save someone. You shove yourself. In what court of law can a criminal be forgiven by sending the judge’s innocent little child to die in a war by his enemies? Such a notion does not exist in any civilised country on the face of the earth. Mark 10:45 describes the sacrifice as a “ransom for many”. What is the meaning of ransom? Ransom means that someone is held captive and a payment is demanded for the person’s release. Who was the ransom for? The early Church Fathers thought that the ransom was for the devil since men was in his bondage and with the sacrifice Satan releases men. This is an unacceptable notion because it gives Satan authority over God. Such an authority it was that God is unable to defeat Satan except by sending His own beloved Son to the gallows. The concept is not just blasphemous but also absurd. If the ransom is to the Father then He appears cruel like a Shylock and why then should He deserve our adoration? Christians claim that they love God in the Trinity equally. But several noted Christian theologians have questioned this strongly. They ask pertinently that if it was the Son that died for believers and not the Father or the Holy Spirit how can they love and adore the other two equal to Jesus? Undoubtedly Christians will think more of Jesus and praise him rather than the Father. This is evident in contemporary and classic Christian culture and music. Songs about Jesus exceedingly outnumber those about the Father or the Holy Spirit. Hence, the Trinity fails. These and many other logical problems can never be satisfactorily answered by the Christian believer. We are happy and glad to disassociate ourselves from worshiping an absurd concept.

    • robert says:

      But what shall we say adequate to confront the base representation that it is not punishment, not the suffering of the sinner that is required, but suffering! nay, as if this were not depth enough of baseness to crown all heathenish representation of the ways of God, that the suffering of the innocent is unspeakably preferable in his eyes to that of the wicked, as a make-up for wrong done! nay, again, ‘in the lowest deep a lower deep,’ that the suffering of the holy, the suffering of the loving, the suffering of the eternally and perfectly good, is supremely satisfactory to the pure justice of the Father of spirits! Not all the suffering that could be heaped upon the wicked could buy them a moment’s respite, so little is their suffering a counterpoise to their wrong; in the working of this law of equivalents, this lex talionis, the suffering of millions of years could not equal the sin of a moment, could not pay off one farthing of the deep debt. But so much more valuable, precious, and dear, is the suffering of the innocent, so much more of a satisfaction—observe—to the justice of God, that in return for that suffering another wrong is done: the sinners who deserve and ought to be punished are set free.

      I know the root of all that can be said on the subject; the notion is imbedded in the gray matter of my Scotch brains; and if I reject it, I know what I reject. For the love of God my heart rose early against the low invention. Strange that in a Christian land it should need to be said, that to punish the innocent and let the guilty go free is unjust! It wrongs the innocent, the guilty, and God himself. It would be the worst of all wrongs to the guilty to treat them as innocent. The whole device is a piece of spiritual charlatanry—fit only for a fraudulent jail—delivery. If the wicked ought to be punished, it were the worst possible perversion of justice to take a righteous being however strong, and punish him instead of the sinner however weak. To the poorest idea of justice in punishment, it is essential that the sinner, and no other than the sinner, should receive the punishment. The strong being that was willing to bear such punishment might well be regarded as worshipful, but what of the God whose so-called justice he thus defeats? If you say it is justice, not God that demands the suffering, I say justice cannot demand that which is unjust, and the whole thing is unjust. God is absolutely just, and there is no deliverance from his justice, which is one with his mercy. The device is an absurdity—a grotesquely deformed absurdity.

    • mrk says:

      The fourth case of ḥata’t sacrifice detailed in chapter 4 (verses 27-35) relates to an individual who unintentionally does something that the Torah forbids; in this case, he is required to offer either a female goat (verses 27-31) or a female lamb (verses 32-35).

      The important point to note in connection with this chapter is that these are all PRIVATE sacrifices, offered by an INDIVIDUAL in connection with something that he PERSONALLY has done. This is a very different situation from a COMMUNAL sacrifice that is offered on behalf of the entire nation! And yes, for a PRIVATE sin-offering made by an individual under Vayikra 4:32-35, a lamb could be used instead of the more preferable goat—but, whether the penitent chose to offer a goat or a lamb, in either case it had to be a FEMALE animal. So even in this case there is no “parallel” with Yoshke.

      ..

      maybe christianity should replace son with daughter?

  29. mrk says:

    “And we as Christians understand that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross satisfied the requirement of sacrifice once and for all.

    no , what you were supposed to say was this. your PAGAN greek god had no other way to forgive, but the way to forgive was the following way: :

    create a 100 % human body , hide in it and then KILL it.

    your god had to do this because the only other option for him was to use his wrath if he did not kill his flesh .

    “I serve a risen and living Lord. Do you?”

    lets suppose that jesus’ face was badly mauled. so mauled it was that when his body was dragged through the streets no one way able to identify him. in your new testament there is a problem of mistaken identity. people assumed that x was someone else/looked like someone else. so how were these people able to immediately recognised that the mauled face belonged to a once upon a time living jesus? even johns gospel says that mary madgalene said, “they have taken him away… and we DON’T KNOW where they have placed him” is this an indication that the roman soldiers stole jesus’ body and then played a fast one on the jews when they said an angel flew down and zapped them? why would the jews even believe a bunch of pagans about what they alledged to have seen? why didn’t the jews guard your god? they’ve been on his tale when he was alive, why not when he was dead? the stories in the gospels are propaganda preached to a christian audience which believed any lie. just like today, how white american christians believe any lie about islam if it comes from white american christian speaker. so why not the same with the authour of matthew who said jews created conspiracy theory about stolen body?
    you serve a risen god? The GOD of Islam ,created death, control of DEATH, gives death, and is also able to PREVENT death. so the question of ‘risen’ does not apply to the one who MADE it. you see, when your god was dead , ISLAMS GOD was ever LIVING and always will be. see the difference?

  30. mrk says:

    “any devout Jew of that time would have known they he/she was required to sacrifice a perfect, spotless lamb in order to fulfill God’s ultimate requirement for the forgiveness: the shedding of blood”

    way not the poor fella who could not afford FEMALE LAMB ( was your god female?) and who brought pigeons not DEVOUT? if there was obsession with FEMALE lamb, then why didn’t god tell the RICH to buy FEMALE lamb for the poor? what would hundreds of female lambs COST to KING solomon?
    and if they could not afforce the flesh and blood it was a n item which did not have flesh or blood in it. lets assume that the jews believed that god had obession with blood of FEMALE lamb, how does this in anyway prove that the pagans whom god BUTCHERED in the old testament would butcher him (god) in the future? you can’t make this connection can you?

  31. Dr.Mustafa says:

    Blood Sacrifice only way of salvation or not?
    “Then the LORD said, ‘I do forgive, just as you have asked.'”
    Numbers 14:20 (NRS)

    Jesus dying on the cross fulfilled the requirements of a blood sacrifice?
    There are a number of requirements for a sacrifice to be valid or it is completely disqualified and will be an abomination to God. These requirements are as follows:
    1. The sin offering must be brought forth by the person seeking atonement, and slaughtered either by the sinner or by the priest.
    2. Death must be caused by a sharp, perfect blade cutting across the neck, resulting in blood loss and swift death.
    3. The offering must be physically unblemished.
    4. In the case of mammal offerings (bulls, lambs, etc.) the offering must be less than one year old.
    5. In the case of mammal offerings, the mammal must have cloven hooves and chew cud.
    6. The sacrifice must be brought at the Temple
    7. The sacrifice must have its blood taken by a priest and sprinkled on the altar.
    8. The sacrifice must be salted.
    Since Jesus did not fulfill even one of the eight precepts listed above, it’s clear that his death could not be the atoning sacrifice Christians claim it is.
    Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your G-d which I command you. (KJV)

    Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (KJV)
    Twice we see a prohibition of going against the Torah’s precepts. This should tell you it’s an important law to follow.

    Does God desire human sacrifice?
    Deuteronomy 12:31 Thou shall not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. (KJV)
    Deuteronomy 18:10 “there shall not be found among you who burn his son or his daughter as an offspring …”
    You may say here it is burning,but what God wants to say is he doesn’t desire instead hates human sacrifice
    So, we see just saw how the Almighty thinks of human sacrifice.
    He stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son .Had he willed or liked human sacrifice he would have not stopped him .
    He stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son and later he himself sending his only begotten son to get sacrifised is absurd .It is like you stopping somebody from some bad thing and you youself doing it .It shows God tells one thing and does exactly the opposite thing .This shows God having double standards.

    The New Testament quoted the following Psalm:
    Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. (KJV)
    This Psalm carries an important message. Coupled with other verses from throughout the Bible, we learn that while God does place an importance on blood sacrifice, He puts more importance on repentance and the resolve to do better. This Psalm presented a theological problem for the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews:
    Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: [6] In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. (KJV)
    How does “mine ears hast thou opened” change to “but a body hast thou prepared me?” This is not the only time one will come across this kind of behavior went into the penning of the Epistle to the Hebrews, and the entire New Testament for that matter.
    Christian apologists will argue that Jesus was unblemished of sin. This is the logic that pagan societies used in offering up their children in human sacrifices — they reasoned that their children were sinless.
    The Diaspora was prophesied, such as in this passage:
    Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim: [5] Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. (KJV)
    Now, when we see this, a Christian will try to fix this into a problem saying, “but without blood sacrifice, how do you receive atonement for your sins?” After all, you have this verse below:
    Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (KJV)
    With this verse, the author successfully placed the new Christian theology outside of Judaism, because this in no way is a Jewish concept. Nowhere in the Jewish Scriptures do you find the message that without blood there is no remission.
    Time and time again, the prophets preached repentance and obedience, placing these things above sacrifice.
    1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams. (KJV)
    Given how often this theme is given (such as in the Psalm quoted above) the Christian position of there being no atonement without blood becomes a little puzzling. Hosea also gave a startling message that prayer can take the place of sacrifices:
    Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.[2] Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips. (KJV)
    Now, given the language that KJV used in its translation, this is likely rather confusing. For that reason, let us use the American Standard Version’s translation:
    Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto J—vah thy G-d; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. [2]Take with you words, and return unto J—vah: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and accept that which is good: so will we render [as] bullocks [the offering of] our lips. (ASV)
    So, the prophet is telling us that prayer can substitute for sacrifice. Surely, this creates a dilemma for Christian theology, so let’s see how they deal with this:
    Hosea 14:1 Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, For you have stumbled because of your iniquity. [2] Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity And receive us graciously, That we may present the fruit of our lips. (NAS)
    So, we see that Christian Bible translators will resort to word changing.
    For those who still believe that without blood, there is no atonement, think about the Babylonian Exile. The Jews committed sins that caused the first Temple to be destroyed and the citizenry to be exiled from the land of Israel. Do you really think that God would punish us for our sins in such a manner as which we would be unable to atone for them? God wouldn’t set us up to fall forever into a pit. The only response I’ve ever gotten for this problem is “Jesus was offered to the Babylonian Exiles and that’s how they got their atonement.” This has no textual corroboration.

    One of Christianity’s Compelling Proof texts

    Now we come to what Christians feel is the number one Torah proof text that blood is the only means of sin expiation.
    Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. (KJV)
    Those who find this a compelling proof should examine the verse more carefully. Like just about every other Christian proof text, this one is flawed, and taken completely out of context. While this verse does illustrate an aspect of importance in blood sacrifice, nowhere does it say that blood is the only means of expiation. Also, notice the first word in this verse, “for.” In other translations, you’ll also find this translated as “because.” Verse 11 is an explanation, not an imperative.
    Leviticus 17:10 And whatsoever man [there be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. [11] For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. [12] Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. (KJV)
    It’s the blood that makes atonement, as opposed to using the intestines, the kidneys, the brains the muscle tissue. It’s the blood. So don’t consume it. That’s all there is to it. Additionally, if Christians are going to be context to take verse 11 out of context the way in which they do, they must take all of it. Verse 11 specifically says “upon the altar.” A sacrifice without the priest taking the blood and sprinkling it on the altar is completely pointless.

    Do you really need blood sacrifice?

    Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (KJV)

    Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. [31] [This] also shall please the LORD better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs. (KJV)

    Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] His delight. [9] The way of the wicked [is] an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness. (KJV)

    Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. (KJV)

    Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. (KJV)

    Isaiah 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? (KJV)

    See also Jeremiah 4:1-2, 7:3, 7:22-23, 25:5, 26:3-6, 36:3, 36:7, and 50:20!

    Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. [19] He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. [20] Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old. (KJV)

    Daniel 4:27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity. (KJV)

    Exodus 30:16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls. (KJV)

    Atonement money? Monetary sacrifice serves for atonement?

    Numbers 14:20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word. (KJV)

    This verse makes it plainly clear that the Lord accepts prayer for expiation of sin.
    Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. [6] For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. [7] And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: [8] But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto G-d: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. [9] Who can tell if G-d will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? [10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. (KJV)
    Nineveh was forgiven of their evil deeds by fasting and repentance, and without sacrifice.
    Jonah 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: [11]And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than six score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? (KJV)

    2 Chronicles 6:24 And if thy people Israel be put to the worse before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee; and shall return and confess thy name, and pray and make supplication before thee in this house; [25] Then hear thou from the heavens, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest to them and to their fathers. [26] When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou dost afflict them; [27] Then hear thou from heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, when thou hast taught them the good way, wherein they should walk; and send rain upon thy land, which thou hast given unto thy people for an inheritance. [28] If there be dearth in the land, if there be pestilence, if there be blasting, or mildew, locusts, or caterpillars; if their enemies besiege them in the cities of their land; whatsoever sore or whatsoever sickness there be: [29] Then what prayer or what supplication so ever shall be made of any man, or of all thy people Israel, when every one shall know his own sore and his own grief, and shall spread forth his hands in this house: [30]Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou knowest the hearts of the children of men) [31] That they may fear thee, to walk in thy ways, so long as they live in the land which thou gavest unto our fathers. (KJV)

    Since the Bible clearly states that Solomon is the wisest man to ever live, logic should tell us that he would not be in error on such a fundamental issue like sin and atonement.
    2 Chronicles 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near; [37] Yet if they bethink themselves in the land whither they are carried captive, and turn and pray unto thee in the land of their captivity, saying, We have sinned, we have done amiss, and have dealt wickedly; [38] If they return to thee with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their captivity, whither they have carried them captives, and pray toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, and toward the city which thou hast chosen, and toward the house which I have built for thy name: [39] Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee. [40] Now, my God, let, I beseech thee, thine eyes be open, and let thine ears be attent unto the prayer that is made in this place. (KJV)

    2 Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; [14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. (KJV)
    And the Lord agreed.

    Other verses showing repentance to be criteria for forgiveness
    Ezekiel 18:21 to 32
    verse 21-23“But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keep my statues and does what is lawful and right ,he shall surely live ;he shall not die .None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him for the righteousness which he has done he shall live ….”.
    verse 30-32 “therefore I judge you o house of Israel ,every one according to his own ways ,says the lord God .Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from all your transgressions which you have committed against me and get yourself new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die,o house of Israel?.For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the lord god ,so turn and live”

    Hosea 6:6 “for I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God ,rather than burnt offering”
    Solomon used to give hundreds of offerings to God (1 kings 8:63), but when he sinned by going against Gods commandments God punished him (1 kings11).Had sacrifice and shedding of blood be an atonement of forgiving sins he would have not got punished .
    You may ask then why did GOD ask to sacrifice for repentance in the Law of Moses?
    HE NEVER SAID BLOOD WILL WASH OFF OUR SINS .Logically it is absurd. Suppose if we break a rule ,like we jump a signal and a policeman comes and asks us to give a sacrifice for recompense ,is it logical. Then why will God ask us to do such an illogical thing.
    The answer is in Leviticus chapter 1 to 7
    In chapter 6 God clearly says to restore what mistake we do and then give offering.
    Now what for offering? After we restore our mistake.
    In chapter 7 is the answer this chapter shows how what to be given for offering is to be eaten by priest .It was a source of food for them since they used to be at temple and had no source of food .And blood of sacrifice should be sprinkled on the altar as it is not to be eaten .
    This above explanation why sacrifice is in law of Moses is according to me and we can correlate it with other initial chapters of Leviticus which talks about cereal offering, thanksgiving offering, guilt and sin offering .All these offerings to God are in turn to be eaten by the priest of the temple and the caretakers of the temple who have no other source of food this can be well appreciated in chapter 7 .
    BUT FROM TIME TO TIME GOD SHOWED REPENTANCE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN SACRIFICE AND IN SOME VERSES I HAVE QUOTED ABOVE HE EVEN REPLACED OFFERING OF ANIMALS WITH REPANTANCE.

    NOW LET US SEE WHAT JESUS SAID FOR SALVATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
    MATTHEW
    1) Chapter 5 verse 1 to 20 Jesus sermon on the mount . In all these verses Jesus says who are good people and verse 20 he says to the people gathered to listen his sermon that unless your righteousness exceeds bad deeds you will not enter kingdom of heaven.
    2) Chapter 5 verses 21 to 48 all deal with how our actions should be to be good verse 48 says we have to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect.
    3) Chapter 6 verse 12 Jesus shows how to pray and ask for forgiveness of our sins.
    4) Chapter 7 verse 21 Jesus says he who does the will of my father will enter the heaven.
    5) Chapter 12 verse 7 Jesus confirms hosea verse 6 of chapter 6 “I desire mercy not sacrifice”
    6) Chapter 16 verse 24 Jesus tells here that a man should carry his own cross.
    7) Chapter 18 verses 21 to 35 in these verses Jesus tells how heavenly father will forgive us if we forgive our brother.
    MARK
    1) Chapter 7 verse 8 he is telling Pharisees and scribes that not to leave commandment of god and not to hold fast to tradition of men.
    2) Chapter 8 verse Jesus tells to carry one’s own cross .
    3) Chapter 10 verses 17 to 20 Jesus tells that to inherit eternal life keep all commandments in verses 14 , 15 and 16 of same chapter he says “…whoever does not receive kingdom of god like a child shall not receive it ..”.here again he says we should be sinless like children to get kingdom of god showing children are sinless as opposed to Christian doctrine of original sin .
    4) Chapter 11 verses 24 and 25 Jesus tells to ask for forgiveness in prayer and to forgive others so as the father may forgive us.
    LUKE
    1) Chapter 3 verse 4 IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT VERSE which tells Jesus went into the region about the Jordan , preaching a BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
    In john chapter 1 verse 33 Jesus is described as he who baptizes with holy spirit .So Jesus showed repantance as a method of forgiveness of sins and this is how he baptized with holy spirit.
    In john chapter 1 verse 29 Jesus is showed as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world .Jesus showed repantace and this is how he takes away the sin.
    You can see clearly here that JESUS SAID REPENTANCE FOR SINS. Where is the blood and where is the crucifixion here.
    2) Chapter 6 verses 20 to 45 in these verses Jesus tells what we have to do to get reward .in verse 46 to 49 of same chapter he says he who does what Jesus tells is the one building a strong house.
    3) Chapter 11 verse 3 Jesus is telling to pray and ask for forgiveness.
    4) Chapter 13 verses 1 to 5 Jesus gives examples of Galileans and Siloam and says unless you repent you will perish.
    5) Chapter 14 verse 27 Jesus says whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be his disciple.
    6) Chapter 15 verse 7 Jesus says there will be more joy in the heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
    7) Chapter 18 verse 17 Jesus says “…whoever does not receive kingdom of God like a child shall not receive it ..”
    JOHN
    1) Chapter 8 verse 1 to 11 Jesus protects a women who has committed adultery and says to the women not to sin again.
    2) Chapter 14 verse 15 “if you love me you will keep my commandments”. Christians falsely say that Muslims have no love for God they are only involved in the commandments without love .They do not know that the basis of relation with God in Quran is direct one to one and on basis of love but love is through keeping the God’s commandments not just superficial love .This is best again explained in this verse by Jesus .

    If a man truely loves his kith and kin and his friends he does it in his actions and not just superficial love by saying I love them and doing nothing in actions.

    3) Chapter 17 verse 3 and 4 Jesus says “ .. and this is eternal life that they know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent.” Here Jesus clearly says eternal life is knowing the only true god and Jesus who is the christ.He did not say this is eternal life that they should believe that iam dying for their sins

    In all these verses where is the blood of Christ where is crucifixion where is redemption on believing Christ died on cross?

    PEOPLE SINNED BEFORE JESUS CHRIST WERE THEY NOT FORGIVEN BY GOD WHEN THEY REPENTED .DID GOD BECAME A SACRIFICIAL LAMB TO FORGIVE THEM IN DAYS BEFORE JESUS THAT HE SHOULD BECAME SACRIFICIAL LAMB LATER ?

    Christians say that once we sinned it is infinite sin as we are sinning against an infinite God .So God himself became man and shed his blood to forgive the sin.

    It was in the plan of God that man should be created and given a free will to select from either good or bad .Man by his nature does wrong things and by his nature recognizes what is good and what is bad and by his nature reconciles after doing bad. It is not that he is permanently good and permanently bad .So God gives him continuous chances as long as man lives to reconcile .So if a man goes against God’s commandment it is not that he has infinitely sinned .If that would have been the case there would have been no repentance and no forgiveness of sin and once sinned means that would have been the end and once we do good work that would again have been the end .God has his criteria to forgive sin and he is very clear on that .
    Through out the old testament he told that once we do wrong and if we stop doing it and return to good works he forgives our bad work. No where in the old testament has he said that once we do wrong it is infinite and the end there is no way out .Christians say if we sinned it is infinite and only infinite God should forgive it .That’s what God does forgive us but never has he became a man to do that .If he had to become human to forgive sin it means that God created humans and can’t forgive our sins and that he need to become human to do that and if he became human to forgive sin he is becoming finite so how can a finite man forgive our infinite sin according to Christians .So the Christian doctrine contradicts itself.

    WHAT THE QURAN SAYS ON FORGIVENESS OF SIN

    REPENTANCE IN THE QURAN IS STOPING THE BAD ACT, ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS TO GOD and NOT REPEATING
    QURAN 20:82 “ IAM HE THAT FORGIVES AGAIN AND AGAIN ,TO THOSE WHO REPENT , BELIEVE,AND DO RIGHT .WHO ARE READY TO RECEIVE TRUE GUIDANCE”.
    QURAN 25:70,71 “UNLESS HE REPENTS ,BELIVES AND WORK RIGHTEOUS DEEDS ,FOR GOD WILL CHANGE THE EVIL OF SUCH PERSONS INTO GOOD AND GOD IS OFT FORGIVING AND MERCIFUL .AND WHOEVER REPENTS AND DOES GOOD HAS TRULY TURNED TO GOD WITH AN ACCEPTABLE CONVERSION.”

    PROPHET MOHAMMED SAID ABOUT GOD EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ONE TRUE GOD CREATOR SUSTAINER AND CHERISHER OF THE UNIVERSE WHOSE LOVE AND MERCY ENCOMPASSES HIS CREATIONS AND SLAVATION THROUGH LOVE OF GOD AND KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS . ALL THE PROPHETS OF THE BIBLE AND EVEN JESUS CHRIST SAID THE SAME.

    THEY ALL SAID ONE THING BELIVE IN ONE GOD LOVE HIM AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS AND IF WE SIN REPENT AND ASK FOR FORGIVENESS AND DO NOT REPEAT AGAIN .NONE SAID REPANTANCE IS ONLY THROUGH CHRIST.

    BELIEVING IN CHRIST DYING ON CROSS AND SHEDDING HIS BLOOD FOR SALVATION IS A CHRISTIAN INVENTION.
    AND MORE OVER CHRIST WAS FULLY FLESH .THAT IS WHY HE SAID HE IS NOT GOOD LUKE 18:19
    SO HOW BY JUST BELIVING THAT A MAN (WHO IS FULLY FLESH LIKE US AND NOT EVEN GOOD LUKE 18:19) DIED ON CROSS WILL OUR SINS BE FORGIVEN?
    Christians say that Jesus came to stop law getting misutilized .But God already stopped it in old testament and said clearly not to misutilize it why then is the need for him to sent his son ,who according to Christians is also God just to die on cross where as he himself said no to human sacrifice and again by dying on cross how is the law protected from misutilizing?
    Christians also say that Jesus took away the sins by dying on cross. I say How?.Is that blood of Christ some kind of detergent that it washes away our sins They also say Jesus dying on cross is the way for salvation and say God came for man to forgive him by dying on cross.
    God throughout the bible was there for man readily forgiving him once man repent and do not repeat .To do that never had God become human or died on cross by becoming a perfect sacrificial lamb .

    THANK YOU

  32. Dr.Mustafa says:

    salaam brother anwer Iam an Indian Muslim Iam a surgeon .i like all Ur articles i too study quran and bible in detail i will also post my comments .

    khudahafiz

  33. frank says:

    interesting stuff:

    The later copies are irrelevent and the citing of the 24,000 manuscript number (most of which are fragments) is deceptive.

    The situation may be compared to Erich Von Stroheim’s “Greed” In Dec. 1923, he showed a 45 reel, ten hour version of the film to friends and associates. He cut this down to 42 reels which he sent to the MGM studio. They demanded further cuts. He cut it to 24 reels, 4 hours and hoped the studio would release it in two parts. The studio took it away from him and cut the film to 10 reels, two hours. Apparently the other reels of Greed were burned in a fire. In 1999 Turner Movie Classics, using still photos, and descriptions of Von Stroheim’s 4 hour cut, produced a four hour version similar to Von Stroheim’s four hour version.

    Now there have been DVD copies of the two hour 1925 released version, probably a million of them. We can say that they are 99.95% the same. We can say that therefore there is no descrepency between what we watch and the people in 1925 watched.

    But this obscures the real problem that we don’t have Von Stroheim’s 4 hour, 8 hour or 10 hour versions of the film. We can say that the earlier versions of the film were tremendously different experiences, but we can’t produce them.

    We know that the early versions of the biblical manuscripts have the most descrepancies in them as opposed to later manuscripts. Based on these early manuscripts and the different readings that the Church Fathers give us, we can say that the earlier manuscripts were significantly different from what we now possess, whether 99.5% different or only 50% different is hard to say.

    Taking the whole mass of manuscripts that we have, from the 4th century to the 15th century, where 90% of them were written after the 10th century, and then saying that the variation among all these manuscripts is small is completely deceptive.

    The major variation is between the manuscripts from the 4th to 8th centuries, and who knows what variations there were prior to that, we only have hints in the writings that say things like there being a 14, 15, and 16 chapter version of the Letter to the Romans, and a totally different version of Luke, etc., none of which we have access to anymore

  34. lord Jesus says:

    islam to endorses sacrife

    quran 37:107 “we ransomed him with monumentous sacrifice”

    here him points to ismael

    Muslims say it is goat sacrifice but how can a goat be more than ishmael .i ithink it points to jesus

    • Ibn Anwar says:

      I have already addressed this in the article. Didn’t you read it?
      “It is not their meat nor blood that reaches Allah: it is your piety that reaches Him…”(Surah Al-Hajj, verse 37)

    • robert says:

      oh my God , why “lordjebus” is posting this nonsense?

      HOW DOES A 4 LEGGED animal point to jeszuz? are you MENTLE? are you on drugs? when abraham cut the KNECK of the animal was he thinking in his mind that he is CUTTING the kneck /FLESH/MEAT of god and offering god to god? are you raped in the brains? when solomon was burning animals was he burning god to god? from the koranic angle it is ONLY A “GREAT sacrificie” because for muslims it symbolizes that one is COPYING/DOING /REPEATING the DEEDS OF abraham, so basically MUSLIM SEE ibrahams WILLINGNESS TO DO WHAT GOD TOLD HIM to DO.

      YOU PICK ONE SMALL detail and link it to jeszuz?
      look , why didn’t abraham beat, mock, spit , whip his son? why didn’t abraham nail a HEAVY wood piece to the back of his son and made him carry it? since torah is obsessed with killing of animal flesh, then abrahams sacrifice is symbolic for the ANIMAL sacrifice because animal MEAN ANIMAL , NOT 2 legged human.

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